Is the BNP really going to save its deposit on Thursday?
November 9th, 2009
..or is Labour using the threat to get its core vote out?
Towards the end my conversation with Kevin Maguire on Radio 4’s “The Westminster Hour” the question arose of how the BNP would do in the Glasgow NE by election on Thursday.
This followed reports that Labour officials have been telling the the media that the BNP might come third? But just how likely is this given that the BNP has never really got a foot-hold north of the border?
Thus the PB Angus Reid poll on Friday was reporting a national share for the far-right party of 4% - while the detailed data points to almost zero support in Scotland. Of the 149 respondents in the Scottish sub-sample just one person - 0.07% 0.7% - opted for the far-right party.
It strikes me that the “talk up the BNP” approach is part of a strategy designed to energise activists and to get more of Labour’s core vote out - and this might be a pointer to what they’ll do in selected seats at the general election
The only danger of “talking up the BNP” is that Labour might end up doing exactly that - and is this outcome what they really want? They could be playing with fire.
In the betting all the money as been going on Labour and certainly Kevin Maguire seemed very confident on the programme last night.
Glasgow North East betting
PaddyPower 1/4 Labour: 15/8 SNP: 50/1 John Smeaton: 80/1 barMike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
Let’s hope not
One person out of 149 = 0.7%
1 Agreed
Labour’s strategy and tactics at the moment seem utterly insane.
Highly unlikely I would have thought.
FPT: With ‘lettergate’ gaining such traction, it now seems inevitable that other examples of the PM’s letters are going to come out of the woodwork.
I mean, he must have written a fair few to grieving families, smeared MPs and reality TV show contestants…
FPT:-
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/11/09/article-1226236-0721DAAC000005DC-445_468×626.jpg
How much are we paying Sion Simon wife to stop these photos?
Also, according to reports he only does a 1-mile circuit. So much for “I’m fit me, I run all the time” rubbish. 1-mile, FFS, it is hardly a marathon. Also, apparently he only started a few weeks ago, but has been repeating that running angle for ages now, another porky pie?
Towards the end my conversation with Kevin Maguire on Radio 4’s “The Westminster Hour” - Did you need to have a shower after that?
8 - I’m sure that Maguire is charming and reasonable in person.
7. Whereas, Dave in shorts? PHWOOOAAARRRR.
9. He seemed lost on HIGNFY the other night - must be hard without pre-prepared spin lines to regurgitate, I suppose.
LATEST:
Gordon Brown says every condolence letter ‘a moment of personal sadness’
What that your handwriting is s##t or that for a supposed “genius”, with worthless PhD, you seem to be unable to spell even the simplest of words?
Seen a fair bit of money for “Any Other Candidate” to come third at Ladbrokes. We put that option in at 12/1, it’s now 5/1. The BNP are included in that.
He told me a fabulous joke which I’m not going to repeat here.
Radio 4 W at One
Brown got same soldier’s name wrong at PMQs (and they played the clip).
So there goes a lot of my “not his fault he’s blind” argument.
11, two important points:
1) hard to say as it’s edited down to half an hour
2) pre-prepared is a Brownism, and adds nothing to the word ‘prepared’.
The BNP hardly figure in Scotland, so the suggestion that they might come third sounds like nonsense to me.
15 - But but but, he said on the GMTV sofa the other day, he remembers every single name….
14, did he reveal who tim was?
11 - I watched the uncut HIGNFY on Saturday on the assumption that the Friday version was an unfavourable cut and he’d actually had more to say during the actual recording. But he didn’t.
The tub of lard brought more to the table when it appeared on behalf of the Labour Party…
I would say not a cat’s chance in hell. However if it meant the SNP winning the seat from Labour, it would be worth it.
7. saw that picture in the Mail. am by no means as anti labour as many on this site, but Brown looks really pretty ill there. more or less everything he does now, he makes a fool out of himself. just cannot understand why labour are not more like the tories i.e. brutal and didn’t ditch him, he is electoral poison.
11 - He probably said quite a bit, but they had to edit out all the Druggie Dave, Bully-don and CON-servative stuff he normally goes with.
11 - HIGNFY would probably be a nightmare for people who are not professional comedians. Kirsty Young wasn’t exactly brilliant and she was scripted.
18 - yeah, but he also said he loves running and has been doing it for ages. See pic in 7…
Maybe the BNP could come third if they copy some recent sucsessful strategies in B/Es - for example Glenrothes..
In fairness to Maguire on HIGNFY, I’d be distracted by other thoughts if I was sitting next to Kirsty Young.
20 - I thought the Saturday version was less cut not uncut.
27. Suicide ?
7 Regular runner my ar$e! I hope Brown’s security team are trained paramedics - he looks as if he could keel over at any point during the circuit.
14. Oh, why not? You won’t cast Kevin’s pearls before swine?
24, she was pretty rubbish, but I think in an earlier appearance she was noticeably better. They should stop dicking about with guest presenters and have Alexander Armstrong do it, with Brian Blessed on special occasions.
If you haven’t seen it yet, click here (not at work. It’s not especially naughty but you may end up in hysterics): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1gwVIhJ8II
David Kerr = FULL OF WIN
Wullie Bain = Gordon Brown’s man in GNE
Sounds very unlikely to me especially as the sort of people most likely to vote BNP probably like Smeaton as an individual.
Yeah, but come on…You’re a jorno..you must know a few jokes and wittisms, and you know a lot of the material before hand.
Even the tory policy stuff on europe..he should have been in his element there….have a few witty one-liners in advance, no need to be spontenous. He does have a few ‘jokes’ doing paper reviews etc.
But he just had a little stupid inane grin on him.
34- Perhaps he couldn’t be bothered.
Has this been mentioned?
Tories finally come clean on Ashcroft tax status
Party’s deputy chairman has ‘fulfilled the obligations imposed on him’
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-finally-come-clean-on-ashcroft-tax-status-1817257.html
Sounds like there goes another line of attack. I notice MacGobble was on the case for the prosecution.
6. I remember Geroge Osborne picked up one of Gordon’s scribblings from the 2006 budget and had the handwriting analysed and this was the verdict:
More intriguingly, the analyst said: “The writer shows unreliable and poor judgment. The writer was not in control of their emotions and instincts at the time of writing.
“There are signs that the writer is someone who does not like to give a clear cut image of himself. There are signs that the writer can be evasive.”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-419003/Scrawl-revealed-Brown-note-shows-character.html#ixzz0WMsm1Qfb
Seems like that analyst did a better job than most political pundits at the time.
Was surprised to read this on BBC report of Gordon Brown’s apology:
“It is official policy for the prime minister to write to the families of all service personnel killed in action while on operational duties.
According to Ministry of Defence guidelines published on the Parliament website, the letter is drafted by military officials and should ideally be sent within two working days of the death being announced.”
I don’t think the letter should have been used as another stick to beat the PM with, the Sun got it right in saying “A considered, personal, handwritten letter from the Prime Minister might have been something. It’s probably what Gordon Brown imagines he sent.” but when did it become an official policy for the PM to write to every family of someone killed in action? Takes away from the gesture making it part of an official process.
Must have been an MoD idea as someone killed in theatre but not in action gets a letter from Ainsworth instead.
LOL! So after all these years of Labour attacks about Ashcroft it turns out he IS paying tax after all?
16. I know it’s edited down, but that still implies he had basically nothing of interest to say.
And given that all the guests have at least some pre-prepared material that’s even more remarkable.
40 - That Grammar school education was clearly wasted on him! Maybe they should have got his wife on instead. Clearly the brains of the family and probably knows some good tittle tattle about some famous people from her time at St Pauls and Cambridge.
36 & 39 Those comments were made by Hague. Uh Oh. Stand by for an all out attack by the TIMBOT.
Scotland does not have a far right yoke of supporters so the BNP will be lucky to get over 10 votes. Scotland has a disproportionate amount of Left wingers such as the SSP, Greens etc and nationalists such as SNP so I cant see any place for the ‘English’BNP in Scotland.
Afternoon all.
The BNP will do very poorly as there is virtually no support for them in Glasgow, a lost deposit is highly likely in such an event.
15 - The letter of condolence sent by Gordon Brown has been panned in the media a number of reasons; blaming poor eyesight does not excuse such sloppy basic errors as misspelling the names. What should have started out as a considerate gesture by the PM has just made him look insensitive and thoughtless, coupled with his performance at the cenotaph this Sunday will expose Brown to accusations of selling military forces down the river . . .not good.
36 – The Independent’s story is nonsense from beginning to end and brings nothing new. The Tories have always maintain that it is not their business but a private matter for Ashcroft and after two years of digging by the usual suspects, diddlysquat has been exposed as untoward.
43
the BNP are left wing
44 - The interesting bit is that for the first time a high profile Tory has said, “yes, Ashcroft meets the criteria”, rather than “ask him, I don’t know for certain”. Now as long as Hague hasn’t been misled, that is the end of that avenue of attack.
45 Correct, but the BNP are seen as too English and there are plenty of other Lefty parties in Scotland. Race politics goes down like a lead balloon in Scotland, so BNP are out of it.
I can’t see the BNP winning a single council seat in Scotland!
If always thought if Ashcroft didn’t pay tax, it would have been leaked to the media by now. I mean, the government can get Ashcrofts tax details at the push of a button, I’d imagine. If there was anything untoward going on, I’m sure MandyCampbell would have leaked it years ago.
48 - Well yes, especially as we know how good those departments are at keeping all our data safe! DVD in the post…..
Oracle @36, probably better to post the full quote, which is a bit less unequivocal:
Asked on the BBC’s Andrew Marr programme whether Lord Ashcroft now pays tax in Britain, Mr Hague replied: “My conclusion, having asked him, is that he fulfilled the obligations that were imposed on him at the time that he became a peer.” He added: “I imagine that [paying taxes in the UK] was the obligation that was imposed on him.”
42 EdP
Even tim won’t smoke gabble’s discarded butt ends.
Mr Hague’s clarification failed to satisfy Labour. Denis MacShane, a former minister and MP for Rotherham, said: “William Hague’s assertion that the Tories’ biggest backer is now, finally, resident in the UK raises more questions than it answers. For many years, Lord Ashcroft has been donating to the Tories through his companies but for how long has he been eligible to do it in his own name?” He added: “Lord Ashcroft appears to be having a huge influence over the Conservatives’ election campaign and foreign policy. David Cameron needs to demonstrate transparency by revealing when Lord Ashcroft became resident.”
My guess is BNP support in England/Wales/Scotland will follow a 4/2/1 ratio until they hit whatever their current natural plateau is in England then there’ll be a bit of a time lag as the ratio moves to something like 4/3/2.
The Sun’s approach may be backfiring–people want them to stop beating up on poor Brown. I think they failed to remember the power of the poor handwriting, poor spelling demographic!
I can’t see the BNP saving their deposit in Glasgow NE. They just don’t have the support North of the Border.
South of the Border, I think it would be an error for Labour to talk up the BNP in places where that party is active.
FPT Gin, I see Labour as being in the range of 160-180, unless some game-changing event takes place.
Eric Sykes was a right wing comedian. He would have been great on HIGNFY.The woman from the dancing show hardly uttered a word.
51 - Can we all start calling Denis Macshane by his real name, Denis Matyjaszek, what with some posters insistent on calling George Osborne, Gideon.
*O/T Betting Related Post*
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=10152330&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,557220,00.html
Those interested in my suggestion of Mile Pence as a value bet for the 2012 US Presidentials might like to look at the above link to yesterday’s interview on Fox News.
Make up your own minds but it encouraged my belief that he’s rattling good value at any odds above 20s. Shadsy has him at 33/1, Betfair 50s (to small amounts.)
Thanks again to all those who contributed to a lively discussion on the subject.
51 “William Hague’s assertion that the Tories’ biggest backer is now, finally, resident in the UK raises more questions than it answers”
Like - “what in the name of f*ck have we got left to beat up the Tories with come the election?
“
Off thread, but I was wondering whetehr anyone could answer this question: Is Gordon Brown the longest serving PM in history never to have faced a GE?
I guess Churchill may be longer but he is exceptional as wartime and heading up a National Government
56 - Have we manage to establish if it is true that the BBC made him change his name, before he got the sack from there?
Isn’t BNP’s problem in Scotland that it has the wrong neam?
I mean, any political party North Of The Border is doomed if it emphasises Britishness rather than Scottishness. Why don’t they reform under the name of the Scottish National Party, thus stressing their localism whilst emphasising the essentially racial nature of their core policy?
This is interesting - Tories on manoeuvres in Labour territory again
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8350477.stm
“The Conservatives have outlined plans to help social housing tenants who want to move find properties elsewhere in the country.
Its new “affordable house swap programme” will use a new database of properties to match tenants with suitable homes.
The Tories say every family will be able to take part wherever they live. “
56. BNP followers always used to call Michael Howard, Michael Hecht, to remind us all of his jewishness.
61 I seem to make more typos when I’m winding people up.
Labour will win Glasgow NE easily. A number of us have had a pop at Betfair recently, including OGH and yours truly.
I have to report, however that just two days ago on Saturday morning, I asked for and obtained on their site a £50 bet at 0.68/1 (0.65/1 after commission) on Labour this by-election, at a time when the bookies were offering barely half these odds. Virtually free money imo - lovely jubbly!
If you look at the euro election results, the BNP polled nearly 5% across Glasgow, this is very close to an MSP on the regional list come the 2011 SP elections.
SNP longer get nearly as many of the Scottish “protest” vote and the far left have imploded. These goes go somewhere and BNP could be that place on Thursday. The BNP message also resonates in areas such as this (and actually is areas more well off than this).
Will they come 3rd, unlikely, could they come 3rd, with irrelevance of the libs at the moment and few tory voters, it is a distinct possibility.
53 - “I think they failed to remember the power of the poor handwriting, poor spelling demographic!”
64: Having worked in Scotland some years ago, it has always been my belief that the SNP appeals to just the same kind of mindless racism that the BNP does, and combining their big state socialism it is pretty difficult to see the difference
65 Oops, should read: “on Labour winning this by-election”
59 - Callagan served just over 3 years as PM (April 1976-May 79), so Brown won’t be able (just) to catch mim.
37. In my view, anyone who relies on graphologists to tell them anything more complex than the time “shows unreliable and poor judgment”.
ISTR seeing a TV prog a few years ago in which each of a number of graphologists was given handwriting samples from two sample groups of subjects.
Based on their ability to infer personality from handwriting, they were asked to say which of the two groups they thought each sample came from. They weren’t required to say anything else about them; they just knew that there were two groups likely to have different pesonalities, and that all they had to do was notice the similar ones and group them.
None achieved results better than a monkey with a pin, which was a bit odd considering one lot of samples was provided by a group of silent monks, and the other by a group of lapdancers.
You’d think the members of those groups would have different personalities, but it appears they don’t, or at least not so obviously different that a graphologist would notice. In IIRC they couldn’t even tell whether the writer was male or female.
Graphology = astrology.
61. Peter
thanks John O - POGWAS, he can’t even claim a prize on that one!
(69 - Should be James Callaghan)
63. “Hecht” is German for Pike.
Remember Dad’s Army:
“Vot is your name?”
“Don’t tell him, Hecht!”
59: General elections in the uk only started in 1802. So any Prime Minster before that really…
The BNP are not a far-right party, but a far-left party
“It is official policy for the prime minister to write to the families of all service personnel killed in action while on operational duties.”
It is a good job for Asquith and Churchill that this was not the case after the Battle of The Somme or the sinking of HMS Repluse and HMS Prince of Wales.
Firstly was this something brought in by Brown or Blair, at the same time as the reading of the lists of the dead. Brown would im my view have more credibility if he had funded the fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan on a wartime not peacetime budget.
61 “Isn’t BNP’s problem in Scotland that it has the wrong neam?”
LOL, PtP, I was given hell on here a couple of days ago, having made just such a simple error.
Sadly the days have long gone on PB when one didn’t have to fret about making spelling mistakes.
Is there much of a tradition of recruiting squaddies from Glasgow NE? Only, on every TV programme about the British Army, each platoon seems to have a token “Jimmy” or “Jock” with an impenetrable Glaswegian accent*… Maybe moving to the front line in a war zone is about the best chance you have of increasing your life expectancy there.
Just wondering how Afghanistan is playing in the by-election.
(*Not meant as a dig at the Scots, simply an observation!)
60 - Pass
63 - Aw crap, I’m acting like a BNPer now. Shame on me.
Well toodle pip, time for me to find out the sex of my babies.
55: “Eric Sykes was a right wing comedian. He would have been great on HIGNFY”
Was?
He’s not dead you know. Not sure whether he still performs, he was virtually deaf and blind last I heard and will be well into his 80s.
(Though I bet he could still compose a better condolence letter than the PM)
82 Eric Sykes was last seen to great effect in “The Others” with Nicole Kidman.
82 Bob, you seem very well informed, no relation by any chance?
Anthony Wells (UK Polling Report) on today’s TNS-BMRB poll for The Herald:
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2342
Mike, it seems extremely odd that you fail to mention this poll in your post. Any reason?
78 - With Brown writing a bog standard letter it would make any service family even angrier - an even more extreme version of Pink Floyd’s “When the Tigers Broke free”:
“And old King George
Sent Mother a note
When he heard that father was gone.
It was, I recall,
In the form of a scroll,
With gold leaf and all.
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away.
And my eyes still grow damp to remember
His Majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp.”
82 - Eric Sykes was brilliant, can’t believe he’s still going.
The sloppiness of the letter was insensitive in the extreme, perhaps the ‘official policy for the prime minister to write to the families etc’ should be curtailed until the PM of the day gave a rats @rse what he is writing and to whom.
83 I’m doing Mr. Sykes’ agent an injustice:
From Wiki:
“In 2005 he played Frank Bryce in Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire.
Sykes continues to act on stage and on television - he appeared in the 2007 series of Last of the Summer Wine. Also in 2007, he had a small role in an episode of the sitcom My Family.”
36. No - it still does not fully answer the question - is he resident, ordinarily resident AND domiciled. He could do the first two and still ‘pay British tax’ - but if he is not domiciled he could avoid tax on a lot of income. Until he says he’s domiciled here its not over……
85 Stuart - it’s Mike’s 347th rule, weren’t you aware: “completely ignore any poll which shows the LibDems doing badly”.
Without wanting to malign the Nats, I think a lot of support that in England would go to the BNP will in Scotland go to the SNP. PLEASE NOTE that I’m very much not trying to draw a paralell betwen the two parties. But the BNP vote in England seems to be made up increasingly of WWC voters England who are vaguely old-fashioned left wing, aren’t going to vote Tory and certainly not Lib Dem, feel betrayed by the Guardian-reading classes of new labour and think the country is going to the dogs; these people are probably not racist and are pretty unenthusiastic about the BNP but feel they have nowhere else to go. Their counterparts in Scotland have a mainstream alternative.
78. The current policy is dated 2008
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6909490.ece
Toenails’ blog worth a look
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2009/11/when_politics_m.html
89 - The original and main criticism was that he got his title, didn’t meet the criteria, was told to make sure he did, and now it is confirmed that he does.
Labour are on rocky ground if they want to bash the non-dom drum, as have had plenty of donations from non-doms, Lord Paul for starters. Remember the trouble they got themselves into when Straw was trying to pass legislation to stop non-doms donating.
While I hope they are right my view is that many above may be underestimating the BNP in Glasgow NE. Don’t forget:-
1. The constituency has a high number of immigrants from many countries including a large number of current and failed asylum seekers.
2. The fact that in the Euro elections the BNP’s vote share was relatively high. I think they did better than the Lib Dems but have not checked this.
3. The Tories & Lib Dems, unlike the BNP who got over 3% of the vote, did not stand in the constituency at the last General Election.
4. All the publicity the BNP have recently received.
Toenails is also using the ’scruffy’ description of Gordon’s letter - heard it from all their journos today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/
“The reason this is a story is because of the widespread sense of doubt about the continued value of British forces fighting and dying in Afghanistan. The row about this letter and the one about the PM’s apparent failure to bow his head at the Cenotaph are proxies for the much wider and much more important debate about whether “our boys” are fighting and dying in vain. “
93 - “Fourth, that Gordon Brown has scruffy handwriting and uses a large black felt pen because he has poor sight in his one functioning eye.”
But hold on, Gordo gets very angry if there is any suggestion that this is the case, he claims again and again there is nothing wrong with his remaining eye. The surgeon who did the works also claims the same. Unless Gordo wants to come out and say, yes my eye-sight is a problem, then people should stop repeating this. Either Gordo is lying or the likes of Toenails are.
Oh dear.
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2009/11/gordons-terrible-gaffe/
Gordon Brown is now officially Frank Spencer. Literally everything he touches…
that last posting of mine reminded me what a brilliant (and saddening) song that is, and whilst I am not a pacifist I think it would be a good thing if many politicians listened (partic the last line!)
It was just before dawn
One miserable morning in black `forty four.
When the forward commander
Was told to sit tight
When he asked that his men be withdrawn.
And the Generals gave thanks
As the other ranks held back
The enemy tanks for a while.
And the Anzio bridgehead
Was held for the price
Of a few hundred ordinary lives.
And old King George
Sent Mother a note
When he heard that father was gone.
It was, I recall,
In the form of a scroll,
With gold leaf and all.
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away.
And my eyes still grow damp to remember
His Majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp.
It was dark all around.
There was frost in the ground
When the tigers broke free.
And no one survived
From the Royal Fusiliers Company C.
They were all left behind,
Most of them dead,
The rest of them dying.
And that`s how the High Command
Took my daddy from me
94. - I hold no brief for Labour - ANY donations, (or members of a legislative chamber) should be from domiciled individuals - pity Oakeshott’s bill to chuck em out of the HoL did not get through.
Its the continuing refusal to answer ‘domiciled or not’ that, not unnaturally, raises suspicion. Simple. ‘Yes’ or ‘no’ will do.
I think you’re all being very imaginative with regard to rightwing comedians. Chubby Brown, Jim Davidson, yawnorama.
Clever modern comedians who want to attack leftwing political correctness know that it is very dangerous (but that’s also why it appeals to them). Therefore they do it in an ironic way, apparently distancing themselves from the rightwing nature of their humour, but still harvesting the laughs.
A classic example, maybe THE classic example, is Sacha Baron Cohen. I am sure he would protest that he is a liberal lefty whatever, but the truth is a lot of his impact comes from saying the rightwing unsayable, in a way that it can be said.
e.g. Northern Comic X standing on a stage making quips about stupid black culture would not only be unfunny, it would be offensive. But Ali G saying “is it coz I is black” and wearing bling and talking about his “massive” says pretty much the same thing, and the daring clever nature of it is one reason it is so funny.
Of course he is also poking fun at our own timid discomfort with racism, at racism itself, at important people desperate to be politically correct, at pathetic Asians and whites mimicking black youth culture, etc.
He does it in such a complex and layered way he gets away with it -and so he should, he’s a genius, and Borat was even more brilliantly offensive yet somehow acceptable.
There are quite a few comedians who are now doing this. Ricky Gervais manages it, at his best. Al Murray protests he is a Guardianista but his pub landlord is an oddly lovable figure who says rightwing things we’d all like to say but are too scared.
There are many others. Sarah Silverman in the USA is particularly scintillating at this stuff.
That’s where rightwing comedy is these days - critiquing leftish idiocy but doing it cleverly, rather than a la Jim Davidson.
In fact I’d say rightwing comedy is in ruder health than leftwing comedy. Who would rather watch Mark Thomas as against Sacha Baron Cohen?
This is only to be expected. The best comedy rails against the Establishment. The cultural establishment is now very much soft centre left with lashings of political correctness. Therefore the funniest comics take aim at the same.
Er, I meant “unimaginative”, of course. I blame the altitude.
101 - There is a valid case for that, I was commenting more on Labour attack plans.
The original attack was Ashcroft was made a peer and didn’t meet the criteria. He also didn’t meet the criteria to donate. If what Hague says is correct, that is the end of it. Non-Dom or not, unless the rules are changed, Ashcroft is doing nothing wrong.
104 (cont) Maybe Labour now want to get into a pi$$ing contest with the Tories over who has had more money from non-doms, I don’t know.
102 My favourite Ali G interview was when some incredibly pompous (and desperately PC) representative of the BMA, was explaining to Ali how important it was for the medical profession to have the opinions of “prominent members of the Black Community, such as yourself.”
104 I noticed the shift from ‘ask him’ to ‘I believe he does’ on Marr.
I have the feeling that the Tories have a laundry list of possible vulnerabilities and are ticking them off day by day.
If Labour are planning a dirty campaign, the Tory strategy will take the legs out from under it.
Forgive me for repeating my favourite Bob Monkhouse gag:
“People used to laugh when I said I wanted to become a comedian - well they’re not laughing now!”
OT - does anyone have any regarding redundancy and sickness. My son has been notified and it looks like the employer has recruited a replacement whist he was off sick and then notified him that he may be made redundant. As he has cancer he is classed as disabled, and as the only person selected it does seem odd. He is thankfully on the mend at the moment and was hoping to return to work before Xmas. He does have an internal email with the job spec of the replacement, which is exactly the same position and has been told that the replacement has started work.
Jeez as if he hasn’t had enough strife this year.
106 I’m still wincing from the nude fight chase in Borat through the convention hall
re 76 but the original poster never mentioned the UK so why not consider all the GB ones as well.
102. Yes, I think thats right. I always think the “the only Gay in the Village” stream on Little Britain is genius because that is what it is doing. Its not lampooning homophobia its lampooning the Homophobia “industry” but showing how some urban identities can’t function with acceptance or having moved passed the ghetto.
108: “I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my father. Not screaming in their seats like his passengers”
or:
“I still enjoy sex at 73. I live at 75 so it’s no real distance”
101. Why is non-dom status so much worse than, e.g. a UK peer or MP receiving large payments from a foreign organisation?
106. lol. Ali G at his best was pure genius. And the nude fighting scene in Borat was, I think, the funniest piece of film I have ever watched - along with the “Jewish cockroach shapeshifting” from the same movie.
Sacha Baron Cohen should get a dukedom.
BTW did you see I gave you a reference for the Lady Chi human pig story? It’s prethread. Turns out the tortures were even more flamboyant than I thought.
re 108 all we need now is for PtP’s kipper tie gag. But asa Brummy resident I’ll repeat it if he’s not around.
LTL: Speak to an employment lawyer - if your description is correct then your son’s employer could be in deep doodoos. You cannot make someone redundant and then replace them, that is not redundancy, it is potential wrongful dismissal. On top of this he may be abl eto make a case of discrimination on the grounds of disability. make sure you get a lawyer that is specifically employment, not the highstreet type!
112 Are you sure you’re no relation?
Only Brown’s team, though, could seize defeat from the jaws of moral vindication. No 10’s statement apologising to anyone who finds his handwriting difficult to read, as reported by Benedict Brogan, is yet another head-in-hands moment:
http://johnrentoul.independentminds.livejournal.com/197961.html
68. Nigel, I have seen some rubbish posted on here , but yours takes the biscuit. Basically you are talking out of your posterior and obviously have no idea whatsoever about Scotland or the SNP.
109 LTL - that’s against the rules. Redundancy = either the job is no longer required or there is a net loss of headcount [less people do the work].
If someone has been recruited into his job function, then it clearly is still required - if he’s the only one to be canned the same criteria applies.
I’ve a lot of experience of making peeps redundant - and opportunistic stuff goes down like a lead balloon with tribunals.
115 Agreed. If it is as you say, then the employer does not have a leg to stand on. Any employment solicitor worth their salt would jump at the chance of taking them on.
90. PfP - Mike’s 347th rule, weren’t you aware: “completely ignore any poll which shows the LibDems doing badly”.
118, he did work in Scotland though.
111. Absolutely. Little Britain can be quite startlingly offensive and
“rightwing” - inasmuch as it targets sacred cows of the left, especially all the minorities - gays, fat women, fat people, spazzers.
Indeed I sometimes find it a bit too crude. But it certainly isn’t “left wing”.
109.LTL, get some advice from an employment lawyer asap.
91. Cookie, I think you are wrong , the SNP are very pro immigration etc and so unlikely to pick up anyone with the same tendencies to vote BNP in England.
NigelJ / Plato - thanks, that’s what I thought. He could do without the additional stress though having undergone months of aggressive chemotherapy and spending months in isolation. Now, just when he is about to return to a normal life, grr.
Malcolm - I just take as I find. If you really want to tell me that there is no genuine hatred against the English for being English (racism) then you are talking out of your posterior. In addition there is a hint of the Scottish racist in your post - would that be because I am English that I have no idea about Scotland? The SNP know they get a lot of their vote out by stirring up anti English sentiment. they are also essentially socialist combined with nationalism that is essentially racially and culturally based. Remind you of anyone?
114 Thanks. It sounds a bit too flamboyant to be true, I think.
123. I think I might also push the boat out and go for Chris Morris and “Cake” seen as left wing because its lampoon drugs policy but actually libertarian in spirit and lampooning Authoritarianism and group think. Its victims were also celebs who endorse public policy messages which in Britain at least tends to be from the left.
off to google employemnt lawyer Glasgow..
126 Try the http://www.cehr.org.uk/ website for current info.
125. The SNP leadership might be ideologically “pro-immigration” (and for good reason, Scotland’s population is stagnant or falling) but I very much doubt their membership share the same ideals.
In particular, I am fairly sure most SNP activists are not wildly in favour of immigration from England, for instance. Put it another way. A significant part of the SNP core vote is racist. It’s just anti-English, not anti-black or anti-Asian.
125 Immigration is now a problem for the Scots and the SNP pro-immigration policies are starting to backfire. There is no a Scottish Defence League similar to the English and Welsh Defence League. There are now Right wing Scottish Nationalist organisations, but I doubt these Scots will vote ‘English’ BNP.
109 I don’t need to add to the advice already given, except to say, move quickly. I believe the time limit for unfair dismissal claims in IT’s is 3 months, from the date of termination.
131 Hmm, weird that link doesn’t work - try this one
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/Redundancy/DG_10026616
As I pointed out this morning, this TNS-BMRB/Herald poll gives the following seat changes:
In that case, should punters not be snapping up Labour at 2/1 in Dundee West?
Ladbrokes - Dundee West
SNP 1/3
Labour 2/1
Liberal Democrats 100/1
Conservatives 100/1
99 - so does that mean his tenure at PM will end with him roller skating backwards down a big hill?
68 So Alex Salmond for Fuhrer then Ha Ha Ha!!!
LTL: There is a lot written on disability discrimination on the internet - it may help your son and you to get yourselves a sinformed as you can. Chambers Legal directory ( I think covers Scotland too) will tell you the best employment lawyers are. Obviously they will be more expensive but may be worth the money!
128. Then you are obviously unacquainted with the reality of Chinese torture and punishment. The Chinese could be, and indeed were - this is historical fact - rhapsodically and excruciatingly nasty.
e.g. The “death by a thousand cuts” method of execution was no western invention. Notoriously, some French soldiers photographed such an execution in China in 1905. The execution is properly called lingchi, or “slow slicing”.
Here are the photos. Prepare yourself. These are some of the most disturbing images ever committed to film.
http://turandot.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Photographs.php
Given that this was happening in China in public in the TWENTIETH CENTURY, I have no problems believing the “human pig” story from Chinese antiquity. Indeed the details seem all too fetishistically authentic.
Glasgow North East for reasons suggested by others is probably the only seat is Scotland where the BNP on a low turnout might save its deposit.
However there is no doubt at all that Murphy & Co are not in the least bit worried about the BNP making meaningful progress in Scotland and that this was a Labour distortion to make their core vote turn out.
It is sure as hell the SNP not the BNP that Labour worry about in Scotland.
Labour have a long track record of talking up the BNP in order to try and get their activists working and their vote out.
138 - big gap between the Holyrood vote for the SNP at 40% but only 25% for Westminster. Also 37% for the list vote is quite high too.
125 - Fair enough, Malcolm - but just to reemphasise, I’m NOT saying the SNP are like the BNP, I’m saying there is a section of the BNP’s supoprt - a section whose values and opinions are notably different from those of the party itself - which is only there because it finds no other natural home in England - it would probably be much more at home with an ‘English SNP’. If nothing else, the SNP are significantly more intelligent, better organised and have more chance of making a difference than the BNP.
The immigration question is an interesting one, though, and the issues in Scotland are subtly different from those in England. Scotland is far less ‘full’ than England, for one thing, and most of Scotland sees the negative effects of immigration much less than England - the poorer districts of Glasgow being a notable exception to this. Shades of opinion in Scotland are therefore also different. There’s also the minor but vexed question of Scots attitudes to immigrants from England which bubbles to the surface now and again; I know the SNP periodically expel people with links to Settler Watch, but it’s an aspect to Scots attitudes to immigration which doesn’t have an English counterpart. But you’ll know more on the subject than me. What do you think?
142. I am not kidding about the horrific nature of those photographs. Seriously. BE WARNED. No joke.
I remember when I first saw them, in a book by Georges Bataille (he was obsessed by them - by the absolute horror). The images stayed with me for days.
Anyone who doesn’t want to be upset, do NOT click on that link. I know this sounds idiotic, but it is true.
144
they also appear to have been very successful in talking up he BNP vote.
woah steady on,
If this is a publicity scare story on the part of labour then if they help BNP score 3rd place then i wonder how they will be able to look at themselves in the mirror afterwards!!!
Nick Griffin has been in the GNE area today and has deployed numerous floats touting his ugly face and their name.
Smeato should still be set for 3rd place as unlike the BNP he stands for some good in this forgotten community.
Perhaps in the case of the BNP any news is good news. So i dont think Labour should play with this particular fire in order to win votes for these rats will feed off the attention happily! ugh. makes me sick!
68- Heil Salmond doesn’t quite have the right ring to it - except to Alex that is!
127. NigelJ
In general I think you are wrong.Yes a few Scots hate the English but as an Englishman living in Scotland I find that many of our friends are Scottish Nationalists (I am a Tory!). Don’t forget that a large proportion of Scottish people have close relatives in England. While the SNP are good at making out that Scotland is badly treated by UK Governments and there is clearly rivalry which may be a little excessive at times it is rarely hatred.
134. Except Scotland does also have a well documented problem with racism.
I believe the Scottish Government even made some TV adverts about not being rude to Asian/Black Scots several years ago?
I forget where it is but it wasn’t pretty to watch.
Urgh - from the comments in Mr Dale’s most recent post, I found this link.
How can anyone be so crass and repellent?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23665546-no-qualms-author-defends-play-revelling-in-death-of-thatcher.do#
http://order-order.com/2009/11/09/about-that-independenti-report-mr-kilfoyle/
The goose step in a kilt might be quite entertaining though!
147. “The Bull” is the method of execution that disturbed me the most.
Being slowly roasted alive in a metal bull with the throat and mouth designed to amplify your screams to the crowd must be the sickest concept I’ve ever heard.
Humans can be incomprehensively cruel.
Jerry Sadowitz is the best comedian about and does not like lefties..
135 The so-called Welsh Defence League was recently shown up to be no more than the English Defence League on a drunken bus trip. Their recent attempts to mobilise support in Swansea and Newport were pathetic and they were massively outnumbered by local protestors waving Welsh Dragon flags.
On Topic - No one has tried to put a figure on how many votes will be required for third place.
Any ideas?
FPT - URW where was your piece on Manchester?
156. For sure. The only reason these “lingchi” executions stand out is cause they were photographed. The grainy authentic feel of the images makes them worse, for me, somehow. A bit like the crapness of those videos - of awful al-Qaeda beheadings.
Ugh. All this is quite depressing. I’d rather talk about AV.
153 - I wonder what he would think if his neighbours organised a party on the death of his mother? What a despicable human being.
142/147 No, my reason for scepticism is that I’ve read several such stories set in a variety of harems (Herodotus gives a very similar story about the Persian court). It sounds to me like the kind of story that just does the rounds.
I’m well aware of what ling-chi involved, so I think I’ll give the pictures a miss.
151 SLAM - I am not by any means saying all SNP supporters hate the English - there are no doubt plenty that would just like Scotland to be independent, and nothing wrong with that. Maybe, just maybe, Scotland is a different place than it was 15 or so years ago when I worked there, I really hope it is, but I doubt it. I was warned by several Sottish people that there were parts of Galsgow where I would be beaten up just for having an English accent - not very tolerant really!
I may be wrong, but I think the BNP’s vote increased in Scotland in the last assembly elections - from miniscule to tiny, I believe.
I know nothing about Glasgow, but if the NE constituency contains a lot of Rangers supporters there may well be a possibility that the BNP will do better than people think. It will be a vote about Northern Ireland, though, not immigration.
Margaret Thatcher sent hand-written letters to the next of kin of those killed in the Falklands War.
124. MD , he obviously never went out then or actually spoke to many people, lots of nutters but not many BNP ones.
*O/T BETTING POST*
Miliband Snr apparently turns down the Euro-post for which he is/was hot favorite.
http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/miliband-turns-eu-foreign-policy-job/article-187169
145. hamish
I don’t for one moment think that Labour are at 39% on Westminster voting intention. Therfore I do not for one moment think that 2/1 is good value for a punt on Labour at Dundee West! I was joking.
By the way, reports indicate that chaos reigns in the Dundee Labour Party. They have not even got a candidate in West yet!?!
156 - I always thought that scaphism was one of the worst forms of torture-execution.
156 - I returned from Prague a couple of months ago, where they have a museum of medieval torture equipment.
The things human beings are prepared to do to each other - and so often involving the genitals - really do astound sometimes.
129. Trying to turn your racism onto me is a bit rich. You posted some rubbush that having once been in Scotland you thought everybody hated the English and had BNP tendencies. Get a grip.
156. I think it’s down to mortality. Back when people had nasty brutal and short lives extremely evil punishments were the only thing that could work as a deterrant as even death, as long as it wasn’t too horrible, wasn’t such a big deal.
162. Here is the source of the human pig story. It comes from the Chinese annals “of the grand historian” - regarded as reliable by expert Sinologists like Needham.
http://tinyurl.com/yagx5lv
So it is probably true - though it seems seems the privy aspect may have been a misreading, and the “human hog” was just dumped in a paddock or field.
Encouragingly, the annals record that the emperor was so distressed by what happened to poor Lady Chi, he went on a year long depressive drinking spree. So they weren’t entirely inhuman.
167 - “Speaking to EurActiv, a leading Labour source said that “Miliband dipped his toe in the water but has now taken it out again.”
Jeez how many times is he going to flash his ankle only to withdraw it at the last minute. What an absolute cretin.
169 - which is?
134. Sean , you should stick to the Far East where you have some intimate knowledge. As has been proven on here many times before your ranting about Scottish people hating the English is a load of cr*p.
169. I had to Google “scaphism”.
It’s gross, but still too good for Blair.
176. lol. Just….. lol. You cheered me up after all this talk of torture. Thanks.
172. I think it’s even more disturbing than that MrJones: Humans enjoy watching other Humans suffer.
Most won’t admit it. But it is true.
And it still goes on today; stoning, lynching, flaming tyres around the neck, gruesome beheadings..
175 - Usual form was to be tied into a hollowed out canoe force fed milk and honey and coated in honey. The person would then be left to float in their own faeces and stung/bitten to death by insects which would also pupate in the victims festering flesh. Pretty vicious.
AAMOI did anyone else realise that Roman emissaries made it to China?
179. Humans enjoy watching other Humans suffer….it still goes on today; stoning, lynching, flaming tyres around the neck, gruesome beheadings
Scottish Labour for you.
Kinnell, Sean. Those images are going to linger.
170. Psychological question: is it an extension of human s*xual fetishes? Such as a lethal S&M?
We are WEIRD.
Malcolm G
take a trip over to Guido and see a typical SNP blogger. Look for the word Cameron.
http://order-order.com/2009/11/09/about-that-independenti-report-mr-kilfoyle/#comments
167/174
Does he think there might be a more rewarding job title available in short order?
The capacity for self-delusion of the bunch of oxygen thieves in the cabinet is staggering.
167. Italian papers saying the same thing. Schultz apparently said PES will support D’Alema now with Miliband out of the running
168. What happened to West MP? Shouldn’t he be the candidate?
The ancient Chinese were well aware of the Romans, and the same is true in reverse. They shared a mistrust of Parthians.
182. NEW LABOUR. NEW BRITAIN.
168 - the existing MP will be their candidate although he is not popular within the local party. Long may their local fueds continue.
on thread - I cannot see the BNP saving their deposit. This seat is where a lot of refugees and asylum seekers were put into the large tower blocks and it caused a local stooshie for a while but that was a few years ago and community relations I would expect be much better. Maybe if Marcia has been through to Glasgow she would give her opinion of their prospects.
104. Being ‘non-Dom’ and sitting in the HoL is a bit like joining a club, but only paying a fraction of the membership fee - and avoiding paying the rest. Especially given the expenses furore, all parties should look to the role or donations of non-doms very carefully.
Its quite possible some non-doms are paying less ‘British tax’ than their cleaners….
188. As do I.
My favourite Parthian story is the one about how they’re supposed to have put Crassus to death. They figured as he came in search of gold, he ought to have all the gold he could drink…so they poured molten gold down his throat.
It may be apocryphal, but if not, it must have bl00dy hurt.
183. I hesitated before linking to them, and did try to warn people. Blame Sean Fear, he was being all skeptical so he provoked me.
Ahem.
Yes they are horrid. They left me a little shaken, as I say. But another gift of humanity is the gift of forgetting, isn’t it? Thank god!
I actually can’t make out what’s going on in most of those photos. It’s like those pictures of Mary Kelly. It looks like nothing.
The victim looks pretty chilled out considering she’s being mutilated. Was she already dead?
I am finding all this stuff about Brown and the letters of condolence a bit distasteful, to be honest. I hate the man but no-one could genuinely believe that he writes such letters with any meanness of spirit. Delineating between the handwriting errors and spelling mistakes is not easy. I think the Sun have rather exploited a grieving mother for a rather grubby political game.
That said, it is now a big news story, and one whose implications should therefore should be discussed. In particular, what does this say about Brown’s judgement? From Iain Dale:
I understand the solemnity of the letter-writing, and the desire to keep it “personal” - but surely, a trusted aide can be found who will discreetly check for errors?
190. hamish
Regarding Dundee West, you say “the existing MP will be their candidate although he is not popular within the local party.”
However, the plain fact is that Jim McGovern MP has still not been officially reselected yet!!! Astounding.
193. The grim fascination is the worst of it. I can guarantee that I’ll have gone through that entire site by the end of the day, just because it’s there.
166, not all BNP voters are racist, and not all racists are BNP voters.
176 - Hmmmm.
When there are exchanges about Scottish independence on here, it often seems that those who support it do so for two reasons:
1. They want Scotland to be independent.
2. They think that Scottsh independence will upset/make life more difficult for the English.
192. I don’t like the bit in Licence to Kill where Dario gets sucked into the cocaine grinder. His body is pulped from feet up but it only takes a few seconds.
Better than it happening to Bond though I guess.
187. The prospect of Blair and Mandy fighting it out for the nomination in a South Shields by-election was obviously too much to contemplate, so Miliband (1) stays put.
O/T
Dan Hannan recommends a t-shirt on his blog.
http://www.thoseshirts.com/lousy.html
Gordon Brown goes to Berlin, and celebrates the fall of The Wall, (and the Stasi), but 20 years on Brown appears to favour a massive extension of the State’s ability to spy on its own citizens.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8350660.stm
200. Unless it’d been Roger Moore. In which case, it would have been less painful than watching Octopussy.
193 -SeanT, fascinating subject as it is, not the sort of topic one expects to dwell on when visiting Shangri La and within site of the majestic Himalayas…?
Anyhow, what local delicacies have you tried yet . . .or is Yak milk the only tipple?
202, ooh, thanks Mr. Flashman (deceased).
199 With the EU Treaty ratified, would Scottish independence render the Treaty invalid?
194. Most of the photos are poor quality, but several (you have to sort through them) are fairly clear, clear enough to see the true horror.
The images that most obsessed and upset George Batailles are the ones where the victim, already missing his genitals, legs, arms, etc - but still obviouslly alive - seems to be smiling rapturously at heaven.
Bataille speculated that the victim was having some kind of orgasm. Doctors and scientists have argued the point: it could be an endorphin high from all the pain. It could a rictus of agony we are misinterpreting.
But the image burns into the brain - once you find it, you never forget it. This limbless guy, smiling as he is dismembered.
Now, just imagine….
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/11/libdem-mp-does-right-thing-shocker.html
206: I think the existing state (which would still be the UK) would keep all treaties as valid, leaving the newly formed Scotland to apply for EU membership.
206 - No.
*O/T Betting Post - FREE MONEY ALERT*
Get this.
Stockton South - odds are…..
Labour 1/3 with PP, 7/4 Ladbrokes
Tories 2/1 with PP, 2/5 Ladbrokes
Fill your boots boys and girls.
Chris Grayling on TV, not the Smartest Giant in Town, going on the immigration conspiracy.
208 (cont) Should just to clarify, that isn’t supposed to sound snide or anything, it is really just imagine if the Lib Dem had leaked the info.
Sorry to be O/T here but I think the Arrse website on Brown at the Cenotaph needs further view. To say are military forces are scathing of him is an understatement
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=137423/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=40.html
195.Antifrank, it was a badly written letter with errors that should have seen it ripped up and done again without them. He was writing a personal note to the mother of a dead soldier, and as such I would have bothered to make sure that it was as carefully presented as every soldier is expected to be whilst on public duties.
I could be wrong here, but reading through PB.com today, I think that we have one of those male/female divides on show. Heard much of others bad handwriting, Easterross sounds like he writes like my other half. Women often do the writing duties in the household for a reason, Brown should have got Sarah or Sue Nye to pen these letters, and then he should have signed it. And if that had happened, we wouldn’t even be discussing this, never mind seeing it dominate the news today. No one would criticise Brown for seeking help to make sure a letter of this nature was as neatly presented as possible.
I cannot believe that after the state of the letter to Nadine Dorries that we are here again so soon on the same topic. Its about showing care and due diligence in a very poignant gesture, this letter didn’t do that. Also getting the name right is absolutely crucial, and any Scot should check if Jamie is the correct name or a fond shortening of James.
203 - This has been shelved until after the election
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/09/home-office-plan-data-storage
Did The Conservatives oppose this? If so further proof that The Conservatives are in power even though Brown is in Downing Street.
“No one would criticise Brown for seeking help to make sure a letter of this nature was as neatly presented as possible.”
It isn’t as if he doesn’t have an army of adviser and helpers, there are a crazy number of them paid by us the taxpayer. What do they do all day?
216. looks as if there is a split in the axis of evil.
tim 159- Still searching. It was one of those that goes on forever, numbered 1 to 1001.
I think it began around 1700 and ended frustratingly in 1865.
I should have bookmarked it but didn’t.Will post if and when, but bet you find it first.
There are some incredible tales of worthy merchants and absolute rogues but the overwhelming message is of the goodness of Manchester people in those ‘primitive’ times.
212 “Chris Grayling on TV, not the Smartest Giant in Town, going on the immigration conspiracy.”
Goodo
212. The smartest giant in town is a childrens book about a scruffy giant who gets new clothes - are you saying Grayling has a new tailor ??
Caption under the big Berlin wall story on the Beeb news site reads
“World leaders past and president join thousands of Berliners marking the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/default.stm
211 PtP - Nice one, thank you!
216. The Tories won’t have any choice. Storing this data is an EU directive - we have to do it. The directive was steered through Brussels by our very own communist Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, as a “response” to the threat of terrorism revealed by 7/7.
In other words, Labour did what they wanted via the back door, with no consultation, and of course they were intending to blame it all on “Brussels”, and plead helplessness, if it proved unpopular when it finally impacted.
It’ll be interesting to see what Cameron does. Could be his first spat with the EU.
224: Screw them…just don’t set up the database…what are they going to do?
224, 225: No, we just need to use the same IT staff who did the NHS database or the Rural Payments Scheme system. Give them a budget of £100 and tell them to come back when it is finished.
225. Take us to the ECJ, where we will lose. It’s a directive. They are not optional. Moreover, f*cking Labour IN BRITAIN were prime movers behind the whole covert idea. So the continentals could be forgiven for some dubiety at our behaviour in now objecting.
It’s stuff like this that makes me a contemptuous europhile, rather than a europhile. The EU is such a disgrace, yet the ideal is good.
It needs a vigorous injection of democracy at all levels.
208 - What an interesting little tale. Respect due to Mike Hancock on that one - I’m not sure how many MPs (or anyone else) would have done it.
227 - Then what, you lose, they fine you and tell you to do? Then you take the French approach and don’t pay and don’t do what they tell you. Then they take you back to there…..
224 - If the EU want it they can pay, then fill the legislative programme to there is no time for it in the HoC.
Wonder how some of the poorer countries in the EU are getting on with this directive?
211 - Well that didn’t last long!
225 “Screw them…just don’t set up the database…what are they going to do?”
Restrict access to the gravy train for the individuals who give them trouble.
233 - sounds like a win win to me
227 - You’ll be pleased to hear that thTories have kjust decided to raise the profile of your imm igration conspiracy story.
Unfortunately they’ve left Chris Grayling to do it, so if its explosive he may forget to detonate *after* throwing it.
Any polls tonight to make up for the lack of polls at the weekend?
235, keyboard issue?
You should get someone to check your posts before you submit them.
167 Peter the Punter
Grrr.
When is Miliband going to get a spine, and actually do something which makes bettors some money?
He wussed out after the false Grauniad coup plot. He wussed out at the Euro election resignation jamboree. Now he is wussing out, despite actually having the new job having concrete power and influence, and little domestic political fallout.
Does he really think that leader of the Opposition will be a better way to advance his career than EU Foreign minister?
229. You are missing the point, this is a UK plan, our intelligence agencies want it. It mirrors similar US systems such as the NSA Call Database, which contains several trillion call records. The Tories will likely go along with it because if they don’t what is GCHQ for? How will we continue to play our part in the global surveillance systems operated by the UKUSA community? It’ll be built because nobody wants to take the risk of missing out on the crucial intelligence that prevents the next 9/11.
Questions as to whether it’s cost effective or whether it’s right to conduct mass surveillance of the population will likely not impede the project.
227. There’s no need to “give in” to the EU Sean Thomas. This EU-phile talk from you makes me all upset ;-(
Why not reserve judgement until the end of Camerons first term in government and see what he is able to achieve re: repatriation of powers?
Then I could accept if you changed your mind!
British impotence and decline is not inevitable. We’ve turned it around before and we can do so again.
222. James, looks like they corrected it!
227. How can you be a Europhile if the thing is so undemocratic?
Just watched the video of the mother who Gordo wrote to, it is even worse than reported. When you see the amount of mistakes it is unbelievable, it is beyond even careless. How does somebody with a PhD think that comfort is spelled cumfort?
From the DT
“However, Jenny Green, president of the RAF Widows Assocation, said Mr Brown should be applauded for sending such letters.
“I think the poor man is trying to do his absolute best and unfortunately, on this one occasion, he got it wrong and upset people,” she said. “None of our widows have ever complained about his letters before.”
A hostage to fortune me thinks - if any other widows/mums have seen the coverage [hard not to]…if all of Gordon’s letters are the same/have errors in them - PR nightmare.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-hoNAQAAIAAJ&dq=williams,bill+the+making+of+Manchester+Jewry+1740-1875&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=4Q9kzUqYaj&sig=VxojQUDtgCkv3VowjD4CMwiwTOA&hl=en&ei=wzv4StLeNcbajQf89NzUCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
If the link doesn’t work,tim, try “The Making of Manchester Jewry 1740-1875″ by Bill Williams in the google books version.
Looks like Betfair are trying to drum up business:
http://betting.betfair.com/specials/politics-betting/uk-politics/glasgow-north-east-by-election-odds-can-punters-really-rely-091109.html
240 - Keep on dremaing Casino
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6525111/William-Hague-Tories-would-not-take-on-Europe-for-some-years.html
238 - I think that D Miliband’s future is more ‘failed leadership contender’ than Leader of the Opposition. He seems more and more like Portillo without the Iberian charm.
241 - Took them long enough.
246 - As you know Smearbot, Hague was talking about finally getting back certain powers. Implementing new things, well there is no reason Tories can’t / won’t adopt a “go slow”. However, they are hardly going to advertise that they are going to take this approach.
247. Possibly even “failed to be a contender”, going by his record so far. Will he step aside for his bro???
244 - Wow 400 pages.Thanks.
243 - I’m sure you’ll enjoy the Sun trawling bereaved relatives for spelling mistakes
All a bit tasteless I’d have thought.
250 - Well quite. He just doesn’t seem hungry for it or politically clued up enough.
246. Where I differ with you, tim, is that you think it won’t happen at all because you think Cameron is a closet Europhile and/or too chicken to do it.
I, on the other hand, take him at his word and I am prepared to reserve judgement until the end of a Tory first term.
As Hague says - and you fail to quote: “We recognise it’s difficult and that’s why we say these are things to look for over the life time of a parliament…I am very determined that those things will happen.”
So, he is determined they will happen and I will look for it over the life time of a parliament.
If you are still posting here in 5 years I expect you to eat humble pie.
252 - Rio is the capital of Brazil you know….
246 If Labour go down to the sort of defeat that most of us here are expecting, there’ll be no domestic bar to the Conservatives acting as they please, in relation to the EU.
234 lol
240, British impotence is not inevitable.
British decline IS inevitable - at least in relative terms. Within 20 years we will have slipped to being the 9th 10th or 12th largest economy, by the end of this century we will be the 15th, 20th or 30th, and utterly dwarfed by the remaining great powers - India, China, America, Russia, Japan, Brazil, Indonesia, etc etc etc - and the definition “great power” will very definitely not include us.
We’ll be a bit like Portugal or Greece now, only with drizzle.
This is INEVITABLE. But our impotence is not inevitable, if we pool our resources with our fellow Europeans. This is where the europhile analysis, however much I hate them and their deeds, was and is correct. As I reluctantly concede.
There was a good quote from a Polish politician about Cameron the other day. He said “everything has changed since the early 90s. These days we shouldn’t be worrying about powers being repatriated from Brussels to London, we should worry about powers being repatriated from Brussels and London to Beijing”.
This is simply true. We will get kicked around the playground by hugely bigger powers, if we remain alone. America will lose interest in us as it becomes obvious we cannot fight alongside them as we used to. So what happens then? Who else is gonna be our best friend?
We need to face facts. Britain can be a leading player in the EU, and that is our destiny. I still despise the EU as much as I did, but I have sobered up a little about our options.
OK, Battlestar.
Zai jien!
254 (cont) According to Mili-banana at least.
253 - Europe is so far in the long grass that Hagues pate disappearing into the Bulgarian capital to discuss cucumber shapes and tachographs will be a first term highlight.
No one cares until the UKIP blazers start to come out in a mid term by election somewhere in Surrey
254 He can’t be expected to know such things. He’s only Foreign Secre…. Ah. Yes. Not ideal, is it?
Still, it has made getting him a Christmas present this year quite easy:
*Miliband opens wrapping paper*
“Ho ho f*cking ho - yet another atlas….”
192 Actually, it was Mithridates who inflicted that punishment on a corrupt Roman governor of Asia (Western Turkey, today). Genghis Khan did something similar to the Governor of Otrar.
Crassus’ head was, however, used as a prop in a performance of a Greek tragedy that the King of Parthia and his court were watching.
232 Unlucky, Antifrank, but you can’t expect an arb like that to sit there all day.
They were betting 30% overbrook across the two firms!
Oh for the love of God, some women MP’s think that the expenses reforms put them at greater risk of sexual assault. Any old excuse is it?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/6531824/MPs-expenses-reforms-will-put-women-off-standing-for-Parliament.html
252 James Burdett
I think hunger is the main issue.
He has had three excellent opportunities to improve his lot - and seems to have chickened out of each.
Using his young children as a reason not to accept is a bit strange - I doubt the job would involve much more travel than, say, being Foreign Secretary, or, for that matter, Leader of the Opposition.
262 …Overbroke.
Got a touch of the typos today.
265. Did you get mutch on ?
If Scottish Labour is on 39% (ie. n/c from UK GE 2005) and the Scottish Lib Dems are only on 12% (-11), then surely Labour are fantastic value at 9/2 for East Dunbartonshire?
Ladbrokes - East Dunbartonshire
Lib Dems 1/5
Labour 9/2
Conservatives 20/1
SNP 50/1
266 Fifth amendment, Harry, fifth amendment…
re 236. James - My understanding is that the Populus fieldwork was carried out over the weekend and, normally, we should expect it tonight.
Last time Populus had 40 - 30 - 18.
In all the furore about Cherie and her purple coat did nobody notice Wolfie “Citizen” Smith on the podium (far left) ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/fashionnews/6530591/Should-Cherie-Blair-have-worn-royal-purple-to-the-Remembrance-Sunday-service-Have-your-say.html
http://www.southofheaven.smartemail.co.uk/smith.jpg
264 - I think his problem is that he wants a risk-free ascent to the top. Banana apart, he doesn’t wish to look silly or be humiliated. The problem is that anything worth having involves risk.
re 267. Except it won’t happen.
263 I thought that was pretty desperate.
258 We don’t know what the World will be like in 50-100 years time. Big nations aren’t necessarily powerful nations, and big nations can fall apart. Nations that seem to show lots of potential can then just run out of steam. I’ll let my descendants (if I have any) take their chances, then. Right now, I see very little benefit from burying ourselves in an organisation that does not have our interests at heart.
272.
No, of course it won’t happen Mike.
But that is my point. If this TNS-BMRB/Herald poll was accurate, then punters would be piling onto Labour in Dundee West and East Dunbartonshire; and piling onto the Conservatives in Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk (I believe that Victor Chandler has that market), BUT THEY ARE NOT DOING SO!!
The punters know that this poll is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
Victor Chandler - Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk
Lib Dems 4/5
Conservatives 10/11
SNP 20/1
Labour 100/1
275 - I would have thought the reason that punters aren’t piling anywhere is that they are not going to invest money on the basis of one piece of evidence.
272, I wonder if that (and Johnson seems similar) is an unremarked upon effect of Brown. Brown became leader without facing election, a strong opponent and by destroying internal opposition. Perhaps his underlings want to ascend the same way.
278 - Maybe, but if so Labour are going to have a torrid time in opposition.
257. I disagree.
Our population puts us at ~20th in the world rankings and we are a fully industrialised and developed nation with comparative advantages in finance, pharmaceuticals and telecommunications. We also have some of the best universities, long life expectancy and a free economy and society which helps us get the best out of people.
All this means we generate more “output” per head of population -than even the fastest growing 3rd world nations. Consequently, I would never expect Britain to be overtaken by countries with a *smaller* population than ours and a ranking of 20th in the world would be a firewall.
I certainly don’t think we will ever decline to the level of Portugal and Greece. If we play our cards right in future; reform our economy, pay down this debt, radically reform education and invest in infrastructure; I can see us becoming a very successful and wealthy nation that can hold it’s head up high in the world again.
If you don’t take it the wrong way Sean I think you do have a habit of taking the contemporary situation and lucidly extrapolating it in the future to provide a narrative of how things *might* look if nothing changes. You then tend to gently ‘tack’ your own views to match this projection.
I have witnessed this before during Brown Bounce I and II when you provided a stirring critique of Cameron and how useless the Tories were before back-pedalling when they recovered in the opinion polls!
It is this that *leads* me to believe that you are not really that serious about your conversion to EU-philia but just incredibly p*ssed off and frustrated. You have a sort of “if-you-can’t-beat-them-join-them” mindset now.
Only weeks ago you were highly critical of the EU and providing an equally good analysis of why euroscepticism made sense. And I think you will readily change your views back to a healthy Euroscepticism if the narrative changes again!
Have faith!
OT “The government has approved 10 sites in England and Wales for new nuclear power stations, most of them on the sites of existing plants.
It has rejected only one proposed site - in Dungeness, Kent - as being unsuitable on environmental grounds.
A decision on where plants will be built will be taken by a new commission after national and local consultation.
Energy Secretary Ed Miliband said nuclear was “proven and reliable” and would help secure future energy supply.
The 10 sites deemed suitable for future nuclear plants are: Bradwell in Essex, Braystones, Kirksanton and Sellafield in Cumbria, Hartlepool, Heysham in Lancashire, Hinkley Point in Somerset, Oldbury in Gloucestershire, Sizewell in Suffolk and Wylfa in North Wales.
Seven of the proposed locations are already home to nuclear plants while Bradwell was home to one in the past.
Braystones and Kirksanton are the only new sites under consideration. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8349715.stm
274 - If the global warming pessimists are correct in 50 to 100 years time the UK will be a paradise of long, warm summers and mild wettish winters. We will be what the SW of France is now. Tour south, meanwhile, the land will be turning into desert.
274. We’ve had this argument before, so I won’t labour the point. Of course you are right that big nations can be feeble, but on the whole the bigger the country, geographically and demographically, the greater its power.
Britain will be dwarfed on both counts.
And as for predictions, no one has so far lost money who has bet on East Asian countries growing at a tremendous rate, once they accept capitalism and the freedom it entails.
What happened to Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Singapore…. will happen to China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. Indeed it is happening already. I am here. I can see it. Central Kunming looks like a slicker version of Turin or Hamburg. Already.
ok enuff gnite!
278 - I’ve come to the conclusion that Miliband will be the next Labour leader pretty much by default, and he appears to have come to the same conclusion - all he has to do is keep his head down and watch as his rivals reveal their flaws (Johnson) or unelectability (Harman, Balls).
Cruddas is something of a joker in the pack, mind; I suspect Miliband thinks the best approach here is to hope the problem simply goes away.
279, excuse me, I have some urgent maniacal laughter that needs attending to.
Mwahahahaha!
Ahem.
They’ll have a torrid time probably whatever happens. I do hope so.
281, I approve of nuclear but they should’ve done this years ago. Slack bastards.
281 - About time too.
277. James - “I would have thought the reason that punters aren’t piling anywhere is that they are not going to invest money on the basis of one piece of evidence.”
But punters nearly always have to act (swiftly) on incomplete (and questionable) intelligence. That is the only way to make money: by acting AHEAD of the crowd.
But punters have clearly (and quite rightly) dismissed this TNS/Herald poll as nonsense.
Labour unchanged since Blair’s 39% in 2005?!? Utter pants.
Noone seems to have picked up on 209, which IMHO is an incredible story.
The phi100 think that the criticism of Brown’s handwriting is justified.
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/insiders_criticism_of_brown_for_letter_mistakes_is_justified.html
This surprises me.
284 - Oh, Miliband will be the next Labour leader - there’s little doubt about that. Ed’s getting stronger by the day.
280 - A kind of Switzerland on sea. It sounds good to me. The problem we have, though, is that we want to be more important than that.
291. With Brown in charge we will have the financial sector of Norway with the oil revenues of Switzerland.
283
if big is beautiful why do I have to choose the EU ?
Better to team up with the Aus, Can, NZ ( if they’ll have us)plus any assorted ex bits (Barbados ) that wish to come in. Population 130 million, 4th largest global economy, produce most of what we use.
Go for decentralised federal system with people who ( largely ) have a cultural affinity with us.
288. MTF - “Noone seems to have picked up on 209, which IMHO is an incredible story.”
The words “Lib” and “Dem” in the URL put everyone to sleep.
293 Alanbrooke, I think I’m right in saying that Australia once looked into the possibilty of EU membership. (Not as daft as it may seem at first glance.)
288. Maggie Thatcher Fan - yes I hope the voters of Portsmouth South become aware of this and he gets reelected comfortably:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/constituency/1230/portsmouth-south
291 - I want to be happy, free and rich. Important doesn’t bother me.
Now, you might argue that we can only be happy, free and rich by being important. (I would disagree, but it’s an interesting and unexplored argument.) But I don’t see the merit in importance and influence for their own sake.
280. I wouldn’t be happy with being “20th in the world”, sorry, and 20th is only guaranteed if your optimism is born out. I’m a f*cking Englishman, goddamit. Twentieth! Cuh!
I want to be a citizen of a superpower again. I’m bored of managing decline, or punching above our weight, or doing OK considering, or hanging around with the big guys, getting shoved in a corner of Iraq by America to do our little bit of whatever-it-is-we-do.
Let’s just the crap, build a democratic Europe, then punch our real weight: superheavyweight.
Yes it’s juvenile but there ya go.
I take your point on my caprices, and you are right, sometimes I argue a position out of wilfulness or just a desire for an argument. But this europhile stuff has been creeping up on me for a couple of years.
I have found myself reading europhile arguments about geopolitics (not their putrid lies about Lisbon etc) and doing the equivalent of sticking my fingers in my ear and singing la-la-la not listening.
One of the final straws was when I read David Miliband’s recent speech on Europe and Britain. I despise this wanker, and all he does and thinks and represents. But it was a good lucid and honest speech about wear Britain is, in relation to Europe and the world.
I couldn’t actively deny anything he said. And when a twat like Miliband makes more sense to you, than you do to yourself, you know something is wrong.
So that’s what happened to me.
289 James Burdett
They should scrap the Phi100.
It is pointless introspection by people who want to feel self-important.
They should spend the resources, whatever they may be, on more actual opinion polling instead.
Sean at 256. Labour will in all probability get hammered, however that does not mean the Cons will have an overall majority, I suspect this is the issue that will be the question close to polling day, in which case they would not have everything their own way.
297 - Well influence is neccessary I think to being free and rich. If you have limited influence you have limited means of preventing others from restricting your freedom and plundering your wealth.
295. PtP
Didn’t Morocco apply for EU membership? I think some other “odd uns” have also made enquiries.
Absolute monarchies need not apply. Are you taking note Liechtenstein?
OT When a disguise is not a disguise
“A middle-aged man dressed as Zorro lured a drunken teenage girl into a dark alley and raped her, a jury heard today.
Mario Duggan, 55, ripped the 18-year-old woman’s jeans and knickers telling her he wanted to make ‘baby Zorros’.
Duggan, of no fixed abode, was known for dressing up in a black cape, mask and fedora in public on the streets of Carmarthen, in west Wales.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226407/Man-dressed-Zorro-raped-teenager-alley-telling-wanted-make-baby-Zorros.html#ixzz0WNjLynNA
295
don’t doubt it.
it was probably when that prat Heath was shafting them and they were heavily dependent on the old Commonwealth for trade.
This from EUReferendum blog:
“The Independent on Sunday records a senior Tory MP saying yesterday that Mr Cameron would have to move quickly in the first year and a half of his premiership and had to show “real progress” on his promises.
The MP said: “I don’t think a promise of a referendum on Britain’s relationship with the EU in more than five years will sit very well. He [Cameron] needs to make progress, within the first 18 months of his premiership. If he does, it will be his crowning glory, but if he doesn’t, it will be a thorn in his side.”
Another Eurosceptic backbencher said: “We have agreed to keep quiet on this before the election, but if things do not start happening in the first year or so, there will be all-out war for a referendum.”
Goody. The lads are polishing their knuckle-dusters….
283 Casino is quite correct, though, about relative population sizes. In terms of population size, I’m sure we’ll be overhauled by a lot of Middle Eastern and African countries, over the next 50 years, but I can’t see them becoming economic powerhouses.
And with thousands of miles between us and them, I’ll take my chances that we won’t be conquered by the Yellow Peril.
Stuart
just out of curiosity ( and I know I’m going to regret asking this ) would Scots feel happier with self rule in an anglophone community or the EU ?
Apparently Cape Verde and Israel have been making enquiries too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_enlargement_of_the_European_Union
305: Talk is cheap….and those voices will be quickly drowned out by new members of parliment which will be more pragmatic.
274. Very well said Sean.
And I’d far rather have British democracy and independence, and reduced global influence, than have our sovereignty subsumed into a supranationalist bloc in the *hope* that it might give us more global influence whilst having the guarantee we will have to swallow decisions and policies that are not in our best interests.
298 Being a superpower means spending lots of money on the armed forces, and being willing to take big casualties in order to enforce you will.
Where in the EU is the will to that?
308: Israel being part of the EU would be fun…
296
Well, yes and no!!
Would the LD’s want to have seen Gordo win another 5 yrs..?? theres strategy and consipacy theories, but I suspect he was an A1 gent, and fair play to him for his honesty/ There’s not a lot of it about.
93 Alanbrooke
Interesting that as Labour bequeath us recession and a re-run of the 1930s, Empire Free Trade should raise its head again. I’m sure our troughers are sniffing the air appreciatively at the prospect of the parliament of the new entity being in Barbados.
308 So the EU is now aping Eurovision?
We should put all our remaining cards on the table in return for the EU institutions moving to London by 2025.
That as well as shutting half the countries “Universities” and turning the better half of the russell group into an Ivy League.
307. Alanbrooke
Hard for me to say: I am only one little Scot out of 5 million. And we have no opinion poll data on that topic.
However, I personally am probably rather more pro-Commonwealth than your average SNPer, and probably your average Scot too.
I’d guess that the weight of opinion (especially businesspeople, eg. Scottish CBI, SCDI, STUC etc) would be strongly in favour of EU rather than Commonwealth.
312 Well, they are in Eurovision….perhaps they will have the EU’s first transexual Commissioner too…
which does go to show…the aim of the EU is more power and influence for the EU. It is essentially a one-world government model.
Here’s a thought - if/when Croatia joins the EU, the UK’s influence in various decision making processes will be reduced from 1/27th to 1/28th. That’s a hand-over of power, no? So will Cammo be giving us a referendum on the Croatia accession treaty???
274. A rewind to early Elizabethan times would find a lively debate featuring the ‘inevitable’ view that the country would become a dependency either of France or Spain. Meanwhile, tiny numbers of Spanish conquistadors had just subdued massive Empires in south and central America.
These things are rarely as deterministic as they seem.
302 Wouldn’t surprise me, Stuart. If they’ll let Scotland in, they’ll have anybody.
[Only joking! :)]
So, pull out of the EU - and gradually become a junior partner to India in the Commonwealth. Ummmmmmmmmmm………
301 - Fair point - but Switzerland seems to be doing ok.
You need some way of defending yourself militarily, but we’ve got NATO for that.
And being part of an empire doesn’t stop people taking your wealth. It’s just that it tends to be the imperial power itself doing it.
320 - Hague specifically ruled it out
HoC Issue of Privilege (Police Searches on Parliamentary Estate) Committee currently in session. Michael Jack giving evidence.
322. PtP
Scotland are already “in” Peter.
There is no precedent for kicking an existing part of the EU out against their will. Remember, Greenland left voluntarily.
326.*Malcolm Jack, Clerk of the House
190 - regret I have not been through since the election proper started but having spoken to people close the SNP campaign ( and a Labour friend yesterday who has been through) they cannot see the BNP saving their deposit. They don’t have the manpower on the ground. All expect a lower turnout as my Labour friend said it was the most apethetic electorate he had ever encountered and wasn’t as confident as Labour Central. Most people seem to vote out of blind loyalty that they ‘had always voted Labour’. The best quote he had was “No we are not interested in politics in this area - we just vote Labour”. Enough said - I don’t expect there to be a change to my earlier forecast of no change in this seat.
268 -Stuart, I don’t expect any change in East Dunbartonshire as the reason Labour lost the last time was due to massive tactical voting in the Bearsden area to keep Labour out. I don’t think that will change next year.
306. We probably won’t get overtaken by middle Eastern countries (because they are restricted by orthodox Islam) or by Africa countries (because they have their own special needs and problems).
But is that now the summit of our ambition? Britain! Still bigger than Qatar!
Come to Britain! We could still conquer Gabon!
lol. We will anyway be overtaken by East Asian countries as exotic and backward as Vietnam, on present trends. It’s a much bigger population than ours, a larger country, has high East Asian cognitive gifts, is hard working, family oriented, mercantile, etc etc.
When Britain has to kowtow to Vietnam, circa 2134AD, you can come to me and apologise, in purgatory.
316 - And making English the lingua franca of Europe (do I mean lingua franca?)
Why is your Russell Group suggestion linked to the EU?
324 - I wonder how well it will be doing now that it is being persecuted for being a tax haven? It had no influence over that decision.
Have we heard whether we’re getting the Populus/Times poll tonight?
330 - Vietnam will overtake us whether we throw in our lot with the EU or not. Partly because they feel no need to anchor themselves to creaking 1950s bureaucracies.
325. But Croatia could still be the cause of a Split in Tory ranks?
(Sorry for really bad pun, I just couldn’t help myself!)
Great cartoon from Hoby
http://www.hobycartoons.com/cartoons/?Road-to-Nowhere/162
300.
You are talking complete b4llocks !
291/297. I’d actually argue that *some* of our influence is non-economic dependent.
We have a cultural influence by virtue of our history, language and legal system that will mean we will always be listened to more seriously than a country of a similar economic size (like, say, Italy) and that won’t disappear.
Being the Mother Country; first modern democracy, home of time, hugely influential literary and contemporary culture, centre of global finance, propagator of the English language, the advantages of being an island..
These things will not be lost. I would not even expect us to drop as low as 20th in the “league tables”. I’d hope that 10th was as low as we’d go.
I just can’t see Mexico and Indonesia pulling ahead for a long time with the myriad of problems they have.
298. Appreciate that was quite personal so cheers for not taking it the wrong way Sean.
I can see many reasons why we might form strong cooperative alliances in future with those who share our values and outlooks - but on a “voluntary” or an ad-hoc basis.
NATO worked well against the superpower that was the USSR. This required significant foreign policy alignment and sharing of defence technology. Maybe a new alliance incorporating Australia, New Zealand, Canada and others may be necessary in the 21st Century?
All that is fine but what I can’t see is why this necessitates a supranational government making decisions on our behalf about our criminal law, citizens rights, fish, agriculture, social and employment policy, immigration and fiscal policy.
I think you are essentially referring to the advantages of open markets and foreign and defence policy cooperation.
We have been pursuing similar goals with a polyglot of different nations for centuries.
We never needed to give up our independence to do so.
Sean T,
I do hope you are yanking PB’s collective chain.
There is no British without sovereignty.
We can be, and have been, and will be, a world power without the need to subsume ourselves into any larger group. This is an article of faith with me. Free trade, co-operation, sure; the USE - over my dead body.
327 You don’t say, Stuart?!
You should know me well enough by now to be sure I wouldn’t make a serious joke at your expense, or your Nation’s….but your reply did remind me of Groucho Marx’s famous quip about not joining any club that would allow him to be a member!
334 I heard a very amusing broadcast on Up All Night about Thailand/Cambodia the other day - they famously hate each other more than the Brits loath the French.
Appointing Thaksin has put the icing on the cake
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/05/shinawatra-cambodia-economic-adviser
Stuart
if if it’s trade based I would have thought there would have been more chance to sell to people called Macgregor in Canada or use Aussie connections to open up China.
I see the Scots Govt has been trying to butter up India with the Scottish connectio too. Oddly they didn’t mention Sir Colin Campbell !
“We have a cultural influence by virtue of our history, language and legal system that will mean we will always be listened to more seriously than a country of a similar economic size (like, say, Italy) and that won’t disappear.”
Casino Royale.You could have chosen a better example than *Italy*, or are you of the opinion that the Romans did nothing for us ?
SeanT- Friendly question. Do you have a reliable source for a History of Falmouth ?
332 Not strictly true, James. Switzerland agreed to co-operate with the OECD. That’s not *quite* the same thing.
Of course, one can but speculate how far its arm was twisted up its back, but then some countries did resist - Singapore, for example.
291 “A kind of Switzerland on sea. It sounds good to me. The problem we have, though, is that we want to be more important than that.”
Switzerland-on-sea would get my vote. I don’t think most people want to be more important than that - just some.
339. Its Test ! Hurrah, Hurrah and Trice Hurrah!
325 Someone pass TIMBOT the Kleenex.
OMW - I was in the wrong profession
“Joanna Killian, 44, who pockets the staggering sum as chief executive of Essex County Council, receives a basic salary of £230,000. In addition she was given a £15,000 bonus last year for ‘meeting targets’ and just over £2,000 in allowances and expenses.
The package makes the high-flying blonde the best paid female local authority chief executive in the country and second highest overall among all chief executives.
Only Kent chief Peter Kilroy earns more - some £255,000 last year, despite overseeing the authority’s loss of £50 million in Icelandic banks.
Details of Miss Killian’s pay emerged in a local newspaper, where the county council moved to avoid criticism by inviting ‘any reader to come in and spend a day with the chief executive’ to see what she was doing for the council.
But when the Daily Mail contacted the council, it was told she was unavailable even for a short telephone conversation.
Miss Killian did not appear in a table of the top local authority remuneration packages earlier this year, compiled by the TaxPayers’ Alliance, because the council failed give an ‘adequate response’ to a Freedom of Information request.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226289/Council-chief-earns-50-000-Prime-Minister.html#ixzz0WNpjYeEJ
From the Beeb:
“Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling has accused ministers of trying to “deliberately deceive” people about immigration policy.
He accused them of breaking Freedom of Information laws and trying to cover up a policy of increasing immigration.
His claim relates to notes between officials and ministers released more than four years after an FOI request.
Minister Phil Woolas denied that laws had been broken and said the details had been published months ago.
Mr Woolas told MPs the notes and e-mails related to a policy to clear a backlog of immigration cases between 2002 and 2004 - into which there had been a full inquiry at the time. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8350904.stm
339. I am slighly oversaucing the supper, to spice things up. But no, my conversion to reluctant and contemptuous Europhilia (i,e. I despise the way Europe was made, I revile the way it operates so undemocratically, but I see it as the only practicable future) is genuine.
It came as quite a surprise to me, too.
Here was another moment which happened a few years ago which sowed a seed. I was watching a CNN report on the American plans for the Iraq war, and some general was being interviewed by Wolf Blitzer and Wolf asked, en passant, as the show was ending, “oh and what about the Brits, what are they doing?”
The US general chortled and said, “Oh, I think we’ll just put them here”, and he pointed to Basra, and there was an exchange of grins as they patronised their brave little allies and then on they went.
Something snapped in me then, all those years ago. I thought: f*ck you. Enough of this patronising crap which demeans us all.
The Americans don’t really give much of a toss about Britain, strategically. Yes we are close allies, I am sure they would always come to our aid in dire straits, and vice versa, yes the cultural and emotional ties will always be strong.
But the sheer force of geopolitics - the rise of Asia and the Pacific - and of demography - the de-Anglicisation of America as Latinos and others arrive - means America’s relationship with us will become more sentimental, in practise, than serious, over time.
Japan, China, the EU as a whole, India, Brazil, Mexico, Russia, they will all be more important to the States as the years pass. And that is how it should be.
Equally, Britain must cultivate her *own* interests. And yes I am afraid I believe these now lie within the EU. Along with Germany and France we could basically run the show. We would be a third of a superpower.
That’ll do me.
346. yes we could all do with a good laugh
334. I don’t think Vietnam will overtake us in our lifetimes.
Each individual would have to produce 70%+ the economic output each Briton does in a nation not geographically blessed to say the least.
350. Imagine the future in the EU…
I was watching a CNN report on the American plans for the IraN war, and some general was being interviewed by Wolf Blitzer and Wolf asked, en passant, as the show was ending, “oh and what about the EU, what are they doing?”
The US general chortled and said, “Oh, I think we’ll just put them here”, and he pointed to Rammstein medical base, and there was an exchange of grins as they patronised their brave little allies and then on they went.
342. Alanbrooke - “Oddly they didn’t mention Sir Colin Campbell.”
Nor David Baird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_David_Baird,_1st_Baronet
etc, etc, etc, etc, etc…
(Scots made up about a quarter of the British forces in India. Amazing when one considers the size of Scotland within the UK, even back then. Burma even more Scottish connections.)
Malcolm Jack: Serjeant did not have delegated authority to allow search of Parliamentary grounds.
Malcolm Jack, so far unimpressive, confused.
343. And who listens to what Italy has to say about world affairs today?
Switzerland has an application to join the EU. They haven’t submitted it yet but all Swiss-EU relations in terms of the various bilateral agreements over the years is about harmonisation so that the eventual jump is not significant. Switzerland is not a role model for the UK nor indeed is Norway which has to take nearly all EU legislation by virtue of its membership of the EEA. Greenland would be a better example.
Sean T
I still don’t understand why it has to be Europe. ( see post 293 )
If we have the problem of size then imagine you are Aus. 200 million Indonesians sat on your doorstep, not to mention China.
An old Commonwealth ” United Democracies” looks more appealing than the EU.
Would I rather be led by Sarkozy ( who is currently pretending he was in Berlin the night the wall came down ) or John Howard ( ex-aussie PM ) no contest.
Europe has politicians who despise their people, Anglo-Celtic countries are the other way round.
Jack: Serjeant believed she had a duty of confidentiality to the police, which prevented her asking Jack’s advice. So she instead went to him & asked hypothetical question whether she had authority to all the search.
Michael Howard, Patricia Hewitt, David Blunkett amongst those who haven’t bothered to turn up to the hearing.
357. I once read a very fine travel book about Greenland and the Faroes etc, and it said in Greenland men offer their daughters and wives to visitors, out of courtesy. The writer vividly described the comely wench he was offered, and her “seal-like” grunts during the ensuing coition.
Is this the right model for the UK? I am open to persuasion.
360. Would Greenlanders visiting the UK expect reciprocity?
350 - Mm - but we would be the third of the superpower whose opinions and interests always got ignored. We would have no say in Europe because the politicians we would vote for would ALWAYS be outside the European mainstream. The way a united Europe treats the land beyond its mainland may or may not be in our interests but it would be pretty much down to luck rather than down to how the British electorate want things to go. We would be like a larger version of Northern Ireland within the UK without the benefit of a common language with the country that rules us.
I’m using the conditional future tense, but whoops, look, it’s already happened. Because labour reneged on their promised referendum. Europe can now do what it wants with us and all we can do is bend over and take it.
360 - what currency do they have in Greenland? Because I need to get some changed at the Post Office, pronto…
Jack found out about the search from….skynews. He’s the Clerk of the House, what a shambles.
350. Sean - what you say does worry me but it’s also interesting. Almost all europhiles I know share a common trait: anti-americanism.
Now, I am not an unadultered fan - and I think Blair “mishandled” our relationship with the US, to put it politely - but one rude general does not an enemy make.
Having the ear of the worlds most military powerful nation does have benefits. We should always be a forthright and critical ally, prepared to say “no”, where appropriate, and deny help if we think it unwise.
To her credit, Thatcher did this; Blair did not.
On the “superpower” bit - I think Sean Fear is correct. To be a superpower means wielding significant military force and the EU will never have the appetite to do that.
On Europe itself our policy should remain the same that it’s been for the last 500+ years: ensure that no single European country dominates the continent. Divide and rule.
This is why I was pro-EU enlargement: cue the new British led Czech/Poland/Baltic state alliance to counteract the Franco-German one.
Net result: we win.
353. Is your point that a united EU would probably not agree to attack and conquer Iran alongside America?
Is so, I imagine most Europeans, and a majority of Brits, would be more than happy with that.
But maybe that IS your point. Either way, it’s true.
360. Where can I book a flight?
Right: off home now. Night all!
339 Welcome back, Test.
You well?
Also, Sean Fear’s point about a superpower having to project military might and take billions of casualties is simply wrong.
I’m sure no one really denies that China is now a superpower, with its population of 1.4bn - which is larger than all of North America and South America COMBINED, plus its extraordinary economic growth, its great size, its monumental history etc etc.
Yet does China project itself militarily? Does it see a need to invade places like Iraq to prove its mettle? No.
But it is still a superpower, watching inscrutably from the sidelines, and raking in the money, as America flails its way around the world, showing everyone who’s still the boss.
Overnight counts could lead to corporate manslaughter charges, potentially.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/nov/09/election-thursday-corporate-manslaughter
370 - what absolute H&S codsbits!
I’m off for the evening as well. If you buy SeanT’s analysis of the 21st Centuary then the least worst way forward is to put our remaining cards on the table and secure an orderly transfer of the EU Federal institutions to London. It would anchor our one bankable, global asset as a centre of patronage and influence for a centuary. We’d have to offer
- merger of Trident into a Euro Bomb
- Full Euro Membership
- continuing to provide the blood and treasure of the spine of the EU Military force
- long term net contributions to the Budget
- at least one more deepening constitutional treaty.
However i also think we get parity of esteem and protect for common law and english written in as well as final widening sweep including Israeli membership.
If you buy the Sean T hypothesis then its this or Switzerland on Sea.
What a pity no one had the forsight to flood the country with Hindu immigration after the war rather than Islamic. Athens to Delhi’s rome might have been interesting but not to be.
368 PtP. Are you spending your future millions yet ??
371 - I know but it seems that some people are determined to count on Friday.
Herald - Darling blasts SNP on by-election campaign trail
Darling has a pop at the SNP, and then takes aim at Osborne and the Tories on the Glasgow by election trail. Business as usual then.
But isn’t this quip a bit tactless?
“Mr Darling toured the supermarket and talked to staff before arriving at the checkouts with a £1 bag of British Cox’s apples.
He produced a Royal Bank of Scotland £5 note, telling checkout operator Isabelle Guild: “From my very own bank as well,” in a quip referring to the state’s 84% stake in the bank.”
373
I have no idea of what you speak, young Jack. Explain yourself.
Off topic, has anyone here been to Tibet? I have a few days spare. I could go. It’s about fifteen miles away from where I am now (but it would cost me half a grand in visas and flights and hotels, so its not like popping to the shops).
Is it amazing? Is it a bit crap? Should I seize this chance as it may never happen again? Or should I save my money for Baccara Bar in Bangkok, or, erm, charitable donations?
My pet supranational
fantasyidea is for a “Commonwealth Plus”, including Ireland, the USA and its former colonies/protectorates, and also eligible would be all our former colonies/protectorates/Personal Unions. Maybe a Rotating Capital every few years, between Washington, London, Cape Town, Delhi and Canberra…375 - I personally think taking a £5 note into that area of Glasgow is a bit tactless. It’ll be seen as boasting since it’s not in the form of a giro cheque that can be swapped for White Lightning and other assorted victuals at Iceland.
Too much?
Regarding the various EU-discussions, as for how many cards we should put on the table and how far we should integrate, I always thought the standard approach would be to agree on tighter integration, as long as everyone in the EU agreed to standardize on English as the EU official language…seems fair to me. Now who wants to suggest that to the French?
376 PtP. You missed the Epilogue of JARHEAD !!!
Ok …. one last time :
JARHEAD - The Epilogue
Timeline : 5th June 2020. 0913am
Location : Tea Room, House of Commons, Westminster. London SW1.
Dramatis Personae. Mark Senior MP.
……………………………………………….
The new MP or to be precise the Additional Member of Parliament for Sussex and Surrey sat at an empty table in the Commons tea room and sprawled some new papers on the table. “A History of British Political Blogging” would be Marks second book following on from his magnus opus - “The Bendish-On-The-Wold By-Election and the 2014 General Election”
Mark turned to his notes for the epilogue of his new book, he smiled and turned his mind to those days a decade ago and some of the characters that made the blogging headlines so long ago :
Petra Smith - Elected the Independent MP for Peterborough in the 2015 election. Formerly called Peter Smith and best known as “Peter the Punter” in blogging circles and Princess Mona-Lose-Lose on the racetracks. He scooped a Euro-Millions jackpot of 125M Euros in 2013 and completed the cross gender operation the following year. Petra is a well regarded philanthropist in the field of oversized ladies stockings and related fastenings.
SeanT - In Bedford during a July 2010 book signing tour he was arrested at midnight on the Embankment after accosting an undercover female police officer. Subsequently charged with twelve murders Sean became known as the “Beast of Bedford” and following a celebrated Old Bailey trial was found guilty and sent to Broadmoor. There the self confessed “sex memoirist” is frequently visited by prison reform campaigner - Lord Palmer of Broxtowe.
Mike Smithson - Knighted for political services in 2014, Sir Michael Smithson stumbled on a significant improvement to the Auchentennach Hair Tonic and is now Professor of Folicular Medicine at North Utah University. Sir Michael sold PB.com to Lord Ashcroft for £750K in 2012.
The Jacobite Laird of Auchentennach. Won first prize and the show gold medal three years running at the Melton Mowbray World Pie Championships. Sold up in 2014 and together with Miss Crusty Top of 2013 is now believed to be sailing into the sunset. If alive the Laird is now thought to be 118. Rumours of a new ghost at Auchentennach Castle have as yet not been verified by the castles new owner - Marcus Wood, who keeps the fine tradition of pie making on the estate going.
Mark Senior MP looked up from his notes and was a little taken aback as the Prime Minister and his Deputy, the First Secretary of State paid for some drinks and sat on a table occupied by David Herdson MP, the Leader of the Commons.
Mark thought the PM was looking all his age, certainly ten years in Downing Street had seen the grey and thinning hair prevail and wrinkles too, and much the same could be said of his number two. Yes the Cameron and Clegg show had been at the top for ten years and following their latest general election victory last month perhaps they needed to take a little more care of their grooming.
Prime Minister Cameron took out a small blue bottle from his jacket pocket - Smithson’s Patent Auchentennach Hair Restorative - “We both need a little of this I think Nick”. There was laughter all round.
369 China’s military power is pretty significant now, I should think. While their last major war was 30 years ago, they’re pretty keen on sabre-rattling, and I don’t doubt their willingness to use their military power in the right circumstances.
357
Dave H is being rather less than accurate with regard to the Norwegian position vis a vis EU law. The Norwegians are obliged to accept a certain amount of EU legislation where it relates to teh single market. However this is actually a very small proportion of the total amount of EU legislation and is also all passed by the Norwegian Parliament after full debate. There are plenty of instances of the Storting refuseing to ratify EU legislation and the great majority of EU legislation does not apply to Norway anyway.
Su this is a situation which is much preferable to the current supine UK position.
375: They know what apples are in Glasgow?
350
“Equally, Britain must cultivate her *own* interests. And yes I am afraid I believe these now lie within the EU. Along with Germany and France we could basically run the show. We would be a third of a superpower.”
No we wouldn’t Sean. You willfully chose to ignore what the EU project is about and the fact that the UK way of doing things can have and will have no part in that. If you think we will ever be allowed to stand as equals alongside France and Germany then you are deluded by too much French wine.
381. Actually, China has been spectacularly reticent about foreign adventures in recent years. See the latest Economist article on China versus the pirates in Sommmalia: the yellow peril is unsure even about African coastguard actions to protect its own shipping.
If the homeland were invaded, of course they would react with extreme violence, but that’s not really on the cards.
Having now read a few volumes of Chinese history I am beginning to see this as a leitmotif of the Chinese polity. They are the middle kingdom, they see no need for foreign military or colonial adventures, they are centre of the world, plenty big and rich enough - let the world come to them: as long as the homeland is secure.
The idea of homeland is widely defined, to be sure - as pretty much the present boundaries of China (including Taiwan, importantly) - which are spookily similar to the Chinese empire 2000 or even 2500 years ago, excepting Tibet.
The comparative adventurism of the Mao era, “invading” Korea and Tibet, was the aberration. Today’s China is reverting to type.
There is no “we” in the EUSSR. The European political class are a completely detached oligarchy.
386. Sean
Actually, either or both of the Chinese govts (by that I mean Taiwan) claim part of India (Arunachel Pradesh), Vladivostok and the hinterland, Tannu Tuva in Siberia, Mongolia, loads of islands in the South China Sea, and part of Tajikistan.
369
“Yet does China project itself militarily? Does it see a need to invade places like Iraq to prove its mettle? No.”
Wrong again Sean. Just ask Vietnam and other of the other countries bordering the South China Sea about Chinese gunboat diplomacy when it comes to securing oil rights. I am sure that Tibet might also have something to say about the way in which it was invaded. The only difference being it had no army to protect it. The fact that China has been too busy securing its own borders areas with little or no protest as yet from the rest of the world does not mean it is not trying to project a military presence in the region to secure its objectives.
375 ““Mr Darling toured the supermarket and talked to staff before arriving at the checkouts with a £1 bag of British Cox’s apples.”
Very tactless. They’d be ENGLISH Coxes.
370 - I have to accept there’s a certain amount of logic in counting the results on Friday when everyone is fresher and having the results announced in a much more compressed fashion on Friday afternoon/evening to the whole nation rather than the politically obsessed, insomniacs and shift workers.
But it would rob us of one of this country’s great traditions, and the excitement of the 10pm exit polls, chattering pundits and the drama of the late night results and “I’m definitely going to bed now, ok, one more result, oh hang on, X declaring soon, 10 minutes more then..”
Either way I’ll be having Friday off, and making sure I have sufficient booze in the house to raise a glass every time a big Labour or Lib Dem seat falls to the Tories.
Oh Dear…. Sarkozy…
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100016196/sarkozys-unreliable-memories-of-berlin-1989/
Sean Thomas. Official historian for The Beano and Dandy.
391: I’ll try to make sure to have that friday off work too…
146. Cookie, I still do not see most Scottish people having any issue with English people per se, admit there are some incidents but I do not see most of it any worse than I saw when living in England re the Scottish. I have lots of banter with my colleagues but it is only friendly banter. It may be that I am just not mixing with those type of people but I see more bias , conscious or not, coming the other way to be truthful. You only need to read some of the posts on here , some of them are not friendly banter but pretty nasty, and I certainly am not including you in that.
381 PMSL!
:) 
Ah Jack, if only it could all be so…..but really, who in their right mind could ever imagine David Cameron as PM?
Yes, the disputes over the ownership of the Spratly Islands makes the confusion over Rockall’s status look like a game of noughts and crosses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spratly_islands
388 “Tannu Tuva in Siberia” - blast from the past: that takes me all the way back to stamp-collecting in childhood - they used to have really excellent pictorial triangular stamps from Tannu Tuva…
394 - I’m having the whole week off and the week before. I’m going to do my bit to ensure the result I want!!
388. But these are snippets of Asia, squabbles over nothing. What I’m trying to say is China sees no need to go jackbooting across the world, with guns, like America. They are doing their projecting with “aid” and “investment”.
389. Yes of course China lords it over the rest of East Asia. That is unsurprising, it is by far the biggest power in east Asia. But does China have bases across the world like America? Does it even want them? I rather doubt it. As long as the homeland is safe…
If you read my comment closely you will see I specifically called the invasion of Tibet (never, historically, part of the Chinese empire) an aberration. It happened under Mao. It was arguably a geopolitical mistake: Tibet is poor in resources and rich in trouble.
I reckon China learned from the Tibet experience. They still want Taiwan, they got Hong Kong, after that being the richest and most populous country on earth will probably suffice.
That’s not to say superpowerful China won’t one day run amok and try and conquer Sweden, who the F knows. But Chinese history reveals little interest in colonialism or overseas empire, even when they could easily have won half of Africa, Indochina, and beyond.
163. Nigel , That is a poor excuse, we see daily on the TV , people in England getting beaten up , stabbed and shot just because they went into a certain area where they did not live. What you are saying is true of any British city, and not just due to nationality.
re 391 then why not have the election on a Friday and count on the Saturday?
397 China’s claim to the Spratly Islands has always been , shall we say, optimistic. Their best case seems to be “They are in the South China Sea; that Sea has got “China” in the name; so they must be Chinese - stands to reason, dunnit?”
On that basis, the could have claimed the Coalport China Works…
399 You’ll be busy completing postal votes then?
393. no, I’m right, China has been striving to solve these minor territorial disputes. It’s an official doctrine and it’s called the “Good Neighbour” policy.
Here’s a Chinese view of what they are doing and why:
http://www.upiasia.com/Politics/2009/01/08/resolving_chinas_border_disputes/7703/
404 - Hahaha no.
185. Alan, Could not find anything remotely mentioning Cameron, however you are really having a laugh quoting a poster on Guido as a typical SNP blogger. Just admit you hate the SNP and Scottish people and leave it at that.
Oh here’s a map - Taiwan-specific, admittedly, but most of the coloured-in territories are claimed by China proper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.png
383 Norway has never refused to implement an EU Directive. It reserves the right to through the EEA agreement but would mean the unanimity of all 3 members which is unlikely to happen. The Norwegian Parliament has no influence on the final design of the Directive as applied to Norway. By the time it is debated in the Storting it is effectively non amendable. Norway takes the majority of EU legisaltion in fact, pretty much in all areas apart from agriculture and fisheries, plus several such as Schegen that the UK does not participate in. And of course it pays a sizeable chunk of money to Brussels in addition.
I repeat Norway is not a model for the UK outside the EU.
OT - this is amusing
“A court was played a 10 minute recording of a Wearside couple whose nightly sex sessions were said to have ruined the lives of neighbours.
Caroline and Steve Cartwright’s love making was described as “murder” and “unnatural” at Newcastle Crown Court.
Mrs Cartwright, 48, from Washington, is appealing against a conviction for breaching a noise abatement notice against the couple. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/8351405.stm
408. Perhaps Sean has a point, make that some of the coloured-in territories
410 - that story would be sordidly hot if the couple in question didn’t look like the offspring of kissing - and then some - cousins.
“After I got the Noise Abatement Notice I tried to control it. I even tried to use a pillow (over my face) to try and lessen the noise.”
Hilarious.
408. See my point at 405. You are simply wrong. The last major remaining Chinese border disputes are with India, and Bhutan. The rest have been, to all intents and purposes, resolved.
“In recent years, eager for regional stability, China has resolved most of its border disputes with other neighbors. Despite meeting 13 times, however, India and China have not made much progress..”
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-india-dalai9-2009nov09,0,6596321.story
398. Marquee Mark November 9th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Spelt Tannou-Touva when I was stamp collecting. I remember the first Stamp (philately) Exhibition held in 1946, in the old Empire in Leicester Square, the first such after the war.
The Tannou-Touva Stamps were lovely to my 12 year old eyes, and the triangular ones very popular. I remember buying a set of 6 for all my weeks pocket money; 2/6d.
Ah, happy days.
I see Mandy is whinging that The Sun is just out to get Gordo
Diddums
413. see my 411.
413, if it escalated a Sino-Indian border dispute could be serious.
Paul Waugh’s take on the letter saga.
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/11/jamie-janes-how-to-make-a-bad-situation-even-worse.html
Paul Waugh hits the nail on the head over Gordon’s letter:
“In politics, when you’re in a deep hole, it’s best to stop digging.
But the way Number 10 and Labour have handled the row over Prime Minister’s letter to Jacqui Janes, the mother of the Grendadier Guardsman killed in Afghanistan, shows a cavalier disregard of this cardinal rule.
We now have not just Peter Mandelson, but also housing minister Ian Austin claiming that this is all about The Sun’s decision to back the Tories.
First, the Prince of Darkness said that the tabloid’s story had to be seen in the “context” of the fact that the paper had chosen to “campaign against Gordon Brown and Labour” in the run up to the next election.
Now, on Radio 4’s PM programme, Mr Austin (a former PPS to Mr Brown) has gone even further, alleging that The Sun had “exploited her [Mrs Janes'] grief” and that it was “sad” that it had “used” a tragedy to score party political points.
If there’s one thing that’s guaranteed to inflame this row, it is the insinuation that Mrs Janes is a poor, naive sop whose complaints are somehow not legitimate.
Of course it’s unfair to suggest that Brown doesn’t care deeply about each death in Afghanistan. And of course he would have been damned if he had sent a type-written letter that contained just his signature.
But at the end of the day, the most damning thing about his letter to Mrs Janes was not just getting her name wrong or the odd misspelling. It was the appalling five-year-old-style crossing-out on Jamie’s very name itself. He obviously made a mistake and tried to correct it. The PM should have realised how shoddy and uncaring that would have looked…”
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2009/11/jamie-janes-how-to-make-a-bad-situation-even-worse.html
On China
SeanT is right, that historically the chinese have viewed themselves as the middle kingdom and demanded tribute from their neighbours. Those further afield were simply barbarians to be ignored. It is so vast, like India, that worrying about far flung parts of the world seems superfluous.
Lucien Pye describes China as a Civilisation pretending to be a state. Which is apt. I don’t think we’ll have to worry about an expansionist China. China will however expect regional supremacy, those old spheres of influence, which has the potential for trouble with India, Japan, Russia and of course the US. (Possibly even Indonesia further down the line.)
On the EU
SeanT is wrong here. Three states will never be able to agree sufficiently to project power, no matter how close they are. The Concert of Europe didn’t work, nor will the triumvirate of London, Paris and Berlin. The only way for the *EU* to project power consistently and convincingly, is to centralise foreign policy and military command.
In that sense, it is perfectly logical for Europhiles to seek to promote a centralised, unaccountable bureaucracy. They understand that councils can be split, divided, bought off and bullied.
If we are going to go the USE route (something I’m very much against), then we had best get a democratic constitution in place. Centralised bureaucracies do not have the best of records, just ask the chinese.
410 Fnarr-fnarr
“I didn’t understand where they were coming from.”
415, I wonder if he’ll say that about the electorate next year.
415. He wasn’t complaining when they did hatchet jobs on Tory MP’s in the run up to 1997.
Typical Labour! Can give it out but can’t take a word back!!
Malcolm G
you were too slow.
The guy in question generally posts such offensive material, Guido regularly has to remove whole threads.
419 Does each member of the Labour Govt. now get a JCB as standard issue? “Holes, digging deeper, for the use of.”
425 - They really do need to locate a clue and fast!
187- Andrea
D’Alema? It would not be the worst choice.
Some (right-wing) governments in Eastern Europe could grumble about his membership of the communist party in the 70ies and 80ies… even if he is much more centrist than your average French, Spanish or Scandinavian social-democrat.
What are Pdl and allies saying about it?
Independent “poll of polls”: Cons 42%, Lab 28%, Lib Dem 18%
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brown-government-even-more-unpopular-than-majors-1817667.html
420
call it the Habsburg Empire or the new Soviet Union, it has been built without its citizens’ involvement and will collapse because it is inherently unstable.
My bet is it will be the French who collapse it, in spite of their government.
POLL ALERT See 428.
430 - How valuable is a poll of polls though?
Off topic, but I have been seriously wondering today whether Gordon Brown might after all be evicted from Number 10 by his colleagues. The news coverage today is so awful (and so unjustly so) that any self-respecting Cabinet minister must realise that Labour is not going to get a fair hearing under Gordon Brown. Might that not precipitate a collective challenge?
It might also explain why David Miliband is reportedly turning down the EU job.
431 - didn’t a poll of polls of all the London Mayoral ones predict the result to within 0.2% or something…?
Urgh - Gordon has just insinuated the Tories would be into EU extremism.
What a chump.
GB at the Brandenberg.. on Sky.. I’ve already read what he was going to say so sound turned off..
434, what did he say? More Kaminski nonsense?
432, possibly. The thought did cross my mind, I must say. But it’s too close to the election. It’d be musical chairs with the premiership. Plus they had a great opportunity when Purnell resigned, and they instead chose to stick their collective head in the stands and raise the white flag.
429
I’ve always thought that if the EU didn’t succeed in its current form, it will be the original six members who bring it down. There is nothing more annoying than starting a club and then watch as new members slowly change its character.
Consistent UK support for EU expansion is a masterpiece of foreign policy.
431. We all await any new polls with anticipation.
434 - Plato - did he mention Climate change ? It’s relevant after all..
Has Gordon called the GE yet?!
Hillary giving a good speech in Berlin.
440, it’s been cancelled. It’d cause ‘chaos’, apparently.
re 419 it can’t be long then before the smears against Mrs Janes get leaked to the Mirror.
436 That Labour were against extremism, at the heart of Europe, wouldn’t be on the fringes blah blah - it was totally off-Berlin Wall topic.
I notice that HMG picked today to launch their nuclear power fest - I can’t work out what bad news is burying what
1. Gordon gets a kicking
2. Nuclear power
3. Cautions for GBH review
44, at least they’re launching the nuclear stuff. It’s about bloody time.
Brown accusing the Tories of being anti-EU would make a potent PPB… for Cameron
442 - I think it is clear that an election would cause a 0% rise in chaos.
442 good thing otherwise it will get too abusive on here
441 Erm….let me guess. ‘First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin’?
432 antifrank “It might also explain why David Miliband is reportedly turning down the EU job”
Isn’t a more likely reason that ’soundings’ have revealed that quite a few of our EU friends, especially in eastern Europe, think he’s twerp?
377 Been to Nepal if that helps and from what I hear Tibet is perhaps even better as a travel experience. My Nepalese experience would suggest that the people will be great, as will the scenery. You’ll perhaps struggle a little to find tasty food, although the food that you will find will cost nothing and be pretty sustaining.
444
If Labour were against extremism at the heart of Europe why did they keep supprting Honecker ?
448 - Nope. It’s the sort of speech that plays to her strengths though. She referenced Reagan’s famous speech from the same location.
There’s no hurry for Labour to ditch Brown.
They’ll wait to see how this moderate recession pans out and then, if necessary, decide when and how.
It’s quite remarkable that the result of the next GE still rests entirely with the sitting government. The tories ‘97 were never in this enviable position.
449 - Did soundings need to be taken so far away to find that out?
Was watching the Euro New Channel about an hour ago, fascinated to see Sarkozy and Merkel in avid, quite close conversation, they really looked at ease together and spoke constantly and informally.
Can you imagine that for the hundreds of years up to the period after 1945.
There is an active opinion poll taking place now if anyone wishes to participate, how shocked were you by Lucie’s departure last night from X factor. 71% so far numb with shock, 16 pretty shocked. This is the real nitty gritty that matters to many people.
As a family we have decided in protest to boycott the show next week and watch Spanish football instead!!!.
Mandy on The Sun:
“The owner of the newspaper decided some time ago that he wanted the paper to campaign against Gordon Brown and the Labour party until the next election and so they will find this sort of opportunity to do so,” he said.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the spin that this would not have been a Murdoch decision (doesn’t like/trust Cameron) at the time of the “great betrayal”.
452 Sorry James, you obviously too young to spot the allusion - Leonard Cohen. He’s even older than me: probably older thn JackW too.
453 - This is the longest and deepest recession in decades. Stop being silly.
453 - “Mild”. There has been the fastest rise of Unemployment, the longest recession and some of us are still trying to find a decent job after 12 months. Chump.
453 - I truly think you are mad. There can be no other explanation for a post like that.
457 - Oops. Sorry.
434 - The Tories are involved with extremists in Europe so live with it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/09/miliband-jewish-leaders-conservatives
453
“They’ll wait to see how this moderate recession pans out”
“It’s quite remarkable that the result of the next GE still rests entirely with the sitting government. The tories ‘97 were never in this enviable position”
I can’t quite decide which statement is more entertaining
A moderate recession with a trillion sterling debt and printing billions of notes, or Labour controlling the media/electioneering story.
Re previous thread - has anyone spotted any bets that would provide nice gearing should Labour drop to 120 or so seats? I sort of reckon they might and that will partly be due to the inbuilt advantage they have in the electoral system unwinding a little. I’m already positioned quite well for a Labour defeat but I’d like to gear up some of that potential profit with a Labour massacre - anyone spotted any such opportunities?
458, you are plainly wrong, Mr. Burdett. There has been no boom, and will be no bust.
456 - Odd that, R5 have just taken that exact line in the form of “we have had lots of texts / emails saying this is a Murdoch / Tory stitch up”…They then put it to the Sun guy, who said that the women in question came forward breathing fire wanting action.
458 / 460 / 463 / 465
Gabble can only possibly have written such unmitigated claptrap in order to get a rise from you. Why indulge him?
453. “They’ll wait to see how this moderate recession pans out and then, if necessary, decide when and how.”
“BRITAIN’S recession, already the deepest since the second world war, has now become the longest, lasting for six consecutive quarters.”
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14732042
The Office for National Statistics on the recession.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=2294
Stop being a berk.
Odd how it is always the Guardian making claims about Tory EU partners. They would be the same people who lied about 5000 high profile people having their phones “hacked” by NOTW.
The odds on Ed Miliband becoming next Labour leader have shortened with both Victor Chandler and Paddy Power. Ladbrokes now offer best value at 5/1 on him, though I expect all of the bookies’ odds on Ed Miliband might lengthen again if David Miliband indeed declines the opportunity to go to Brussels.
@462:
Will you be settling our bet now, tim?
Speaking of Tibet:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8349875.stm
C4 still digging on lettergate with accusations against the Sun. ITV news was as embarrassing as it gets for the government. They twisted the knife saying Gordon had handled the matter badly, appearing to initially blame Mrs Janes. Ouch.
465 There may not have been a ‘bust’ as such but there’s been huge damage (once again) to any ability that the UK economy had to manufacture it’s way out of trouble. If you can honestly look at the UK GDP and be anything other than concerned about it’s total service industry/city focus then you’re a better man than I am. If the ‘bust’ hasn’t happened now then it will sooner or later. Gordo has seen to that.
471 - I thought our bet ran to the Election.
And if the ECR falls apart it won’t be the Conservativces that are embarrassed by their links to ethnic cleansers and homophobes it will be the Czech ODS.
——Medical Alert——Medical Alert——Medical Alert——
453.
It has been officially confirmed that Gabble has taken leave of his senses. No further bulletins are expected for several months.
I notice Toilets Muckguire has gone to ground on tw@tter and his blog today. Always first with the big news and reaction is Kev.
470, Labour has no real credible leader either presently or waiting in the wings. Harriet is as mad as a moonbat, and a bigot to boot, but at least has some fire in her belly. The rest are craven lightweights.
475
so why do Labour invite people who support child abuse to their conference ?
474, I must confess I was being mischievous and quoting Gabble MacShane at Mr. Burdett
Excellent article by MELANIE-PHILLIPS: How the Neo Marxists have succeeded in Rotting the heart of Britain and Europe.
I dont always agree with her, but this is well worth a read.
Except for tim and Gabble of course.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1226211/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-We-fools-think-fall-Berlin-Wall-killed-far-Left-Theyre–attacking-within.html
“UK unemployment stabilises”
“The Economy News: OECD says unemployment rate in UK for September was same as in August [7.8%].”
http://www.economy-news.co.uk/uk-unemployment-0911.html
Unemployment rates:
10.2% - America
9.7% - Eurozone
7.8% - UK
11.0% - tories
Tim you denied the muesli.. but of course didn’t mention this. The mere mention of Kaminski..
Seek help tim.. here
http://tiny.cc/Vi5G5
482
btw it’s November. Let’s do the comparison in May next year.
Also on R5 news, Durham and Darlington PCT spending £1 million of health money on….no not copying Hull with a boat, gritting, yeap you heard right, gritting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/8350926.stm
482 - Where is this mythical country called tories? What’s the weather like? Where can I book a holiday to it?
444
The news that is being shunted to one side is the ‘Transaction Tax’.
Brown must hold on to ‘The Saviour of The World’ meme at all costs and the rejection out of hand of his suggestion works against that.
It doesn’t particulary matter provided this is downplayed and his suggestion isn’t scrutinised too closely - ‘a prophet is without honor in his own land’ and all that stuff
482. Think how high unemployment will be amongst Labour MPs by this time next year.
486. Sunny uplands, for the most part.
482 - Is the Paddy Power market on UK unemployment still up.
Thats a cash generator for all those other than the Tory doomsters.
483 - Empty post, from the emptiest poster, incapable of defending the ECR.
Ed Milliband performing quite well on C4. Articulate and enthusiastic. Needs to stop slouching if any of his advisors are looking in.
470 antifrank - Curiously, it seems that the prices on SPIN have now moved against both Milibands. AJ continues to languish. In addition, the curious anomaly of Purnell being joint fourth favourite has been corrected, although he still looks overpriced.
It looks very much as though the market has decided none of them fit the bill - which is true, of course, but someone is going to be the next Labour leader.
Anybody watching SKY - the comically dreadful “domino push” representing the fall of the wall, live from Berlin? If this is Europe….
491
If he keeps his seat, it will be Cruddas. That big if stops me taking out a bet. Ed M looks better by the day as well.
If all you care about is projecting power abroad, the best way to do that is surely to get rid of Lizzie, declare ourself a commonwealth, and apply for US statehood. The provinces of Canada could do the same thing in an English-speaking north Atlantic federation. England at 50m, would surely be a decisive vote in the US presidential election, and thus all future foreign policy.
493 - Cruddas would be a mistake of epic proportions.
491 - I’ve been selling Purnell, a weird market position that was.
The nuclear power plant story raises far fewer hackles than it might have done in the days of yore. Simon Hughes has made a ritual protest on behalf of the Lib Dems although it is not clear how much real support he now gets from within the party for his line. There is barely a mention of it in the aggregated Lib Dem blogs.
Ed Miliband is fortunate to be doing this job at this time. Most people now accept some form of nuclear energy is here to stay. His leadership prospects won’t be damaged by this. Perhaps that’s why David Miliband isn’t taking up the Euro presidency.
493 denmark - I agree and have bets at good odds on both Cruddas and EM. However, in both cases that is for a post-GE scenario only.
496 tim - Me too.
409
Not true Dave. They take the regulations and laws involving the single market. But they do not take CAP, CFP, Social Chapter, common Justice and home affairs legislation (excepting Schengen and the treatment of asylum seekers), enrgy policy or defence beyond the NATO-EU agreements.
As to the costs, in 1988 Norways total contribution to the EU was less than 200 million Euros. The UK was somewhere in the region of £12 billion gross or £5 billion net.
497 - Telegraph thinks he still might be.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6533108/David-Miliband-fuels-speculation-over-EU-foreign-minster-job.html
497 - What is Lib Dem energy policy these days, lag pipes?
496, 499 - I’ve been selling James Purnell and both Milibands.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think Jon Cruddas wants the job. If I read him right, he wants to influence direction, not lead the party. I expect him to try to play kingmaker.
455
“Can you imagine that for the hundreds of years up to the period after 1945.”
Since Germany hadn’t even been in existence for a hundred years in 1945 then I think the obvious answer to your question is ‘no’.
@ Morris Dancer
Would you recommend ‘Morris: A life with bells on’?
http://www.morrismovie.com/
Or is too violent?
When I heard the stuff about energy policy from Ed Miliband, it struck me how pointless it all is as it will all have to be re-visited post General Election…whoever wins.
I suppose Ed has to appear to be doing something, after all Labour have done naff all about power stations in the last 12 yrs….
When was the Telegraph taken over by the Onion?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6520286/Bloodless-President-Barack-Obama-makes-Americans-wistful-for-George-W-Bush.html
I think someone better tell Toby what Bush and Obama’s current approval ratings are…
Our very own teabaggers living in a fantasy world right here in the UK.
482. I realise Gabble that facts and reality aren’t things that interest you, but for anyone else who is interested it typically takes almost 5 years for unemployment to go from peak to trough after a financial crisis. i.e. It is far too early to draw comparisons, Gabble is awarding the prizes whilst the race is still running.
For those who care about this stuff…
“The Commons’ top official Malcolm Jack has said he was “startled” to hear an MP’s office was being searched, as it was broadcast on TV.
Mr Jack appeared before a special Commons committee looking into the police search of Tory frontbencher Damian Green’s office in November 2008.
He said the first he heard of it was when Sky News reported that an MP had been arrested and his office searched…”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8351380.stm
It existed under with less territory and a different name: Prussia.
506 - No it won’t and I suspect the Tories will support it.
509
I suppose he hadn’t had time to shred the expenses claims
506, not seen it. I find the lack of medieval siege weaponry… suspicious.
510. The word “under” should be moved four words later.
495 Mistakes of epic proportions seem to be the Labour Party’s speciality. Blair - destroyed trust, Brown - destroyed the country. I can’t see either of the Millibands geting the leadership (too associated with a failed administration), nor can I see Cruddas getting it (too Union). However I’m sure that the next long term Labour leader has to come from that generation with the possible exception of Hilary Benn.
With a bit of luck Populus should be out within the next hour or so on the Times site.
Normally I get an email saying when it will be published. There has been no such correspondence tonight.
510. But Prussia didn’t border France until 1815, did it?
“There has been no such correspondence tonight”
and consequently, this website is at war with the Times?
518 -
517. But they’d been fighting each other since the Seven Years War (1756)
re 485 far cheaper to prevent the elderly from having falls than treating them.
I keep expectng Eddie Waring to pop up and start the dominoes off again.
Planning Commission:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/6259640/Sir-Michael-Pitt-plans-his-fight-to-save-Infrastructure-Planning-Commission.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/15/quango-fast-tracks-controversial-projects
http://www.planningresource.co.uk/resources/bigIssues/article/942842/Tories-repeat-vow-abolish-planning-quango/
New thread
It would seem to me obvious that The BNP are in for a big upsurge in support, and publicity during the coming years.
As it would also seem obvious that anti-BNP organizations are also in for a big upsurge of support, and publicity during the coming years.
The reasons for this are simple, and self-evident.
The establishment clearly expect this to happen, as they have already made their preparations well in advance of time. The establishment have clearly designed our current situation to be exactly what it currently is, therefore it is not wholly surprising that they can predict future *events/circumstances so accurately.
All the establishment need now is for violence to start hitting the streets, along with the odd small terrorist attack or two. At which point the REAL reasons for The Civil Contingencies Act will become clear to even the most trusting of individuals.
The establishment will claim that they are ‘only protecting the law abiding public’ and/or ‘reluctantly reflecting the will of the majority.’
Many ordinary people will say things such as, ” Thank God the government is finally doing something,” and/or,” Those filthy *Muslim/Jewish/Capitalist/Socialist/Skinhead Scum, had it coming to them,” and/or ” God help us, this country seems to have turned into a *Fascist/Communist/authoritarian police state almost overnight,”
The truth is, that *Europe/The World is yet again being played like a 1930’s Berlin designed fiddle.
*Delete where not applicable
Ah the Spratleys. A small group of Welsh islands a little way off the coast of Anglesey.