Should you take the 3/1 on Miliband for “High Representative”
November 5th, 2009
Would this mean a by-election in South Shields?
There’s a story runnnig, which appears to be an exclusive, on the Politics.co.uk website suggesting that David Miliband has accepted” the top EU foreign affairs role that he was being tipped and, indeed, is current favourite in the betting.
Well done to Wibbler on the previous thread for the spot.
According to the site’s Emmeline Saunders the information has come from “a Labour source” and that this could all be announced in the next fortnight - presumably at the coming EU summit which has been called following the final ratification of the Lisbon treaty.
Make of this what you will and as of 3am and I was unable to find anything else on Google but the “news” does fit with the speculation that has driven the betting.
I’ve taken as much as I can at Ladbrokes where I got 5/2 and the 3/1 at
A key consideration for Labour would normally be the risk of a by-election defeat - but the party’s position in Miliband’s seat and the massive level of postal voting last time suggests that they should have no worries.
Then the result was CON: 5207 (17.2%): LAB 18269 (60.5%): LD 5957 (19.7%): OTH 773 (2.6%) and of these an extraordinary 14.194 (47%) were cast in this way putting the seat in third place out of 646 constituencies in the postal voting league table. The national average, by comparison, was just 14.6%.
Maybe Peter Mandelson could get the law change on life peers through and he could be the candidate - or am I running ahead of myself?
Mike Smithson
MessageSpace Advertising
safe by election for sure.
Now literally nothing stopping brother Ed becoming next Labour leader.
2: ‘Now literally nothing stopping brother Ed becoming next Labour leader.’
Except Harriet.
Of course not! For Bananaboy to be chosen as EU Foreign Minister, it would require the agreement of all 27 countries. It would only take them a few minutes of google-searching (including reading a few threads on PB.com) for them to realise that he’s a pathetic idiot.
It would be easier to stretch the abdomen of an ant to envelop an entire hippopotamus without tearing it than it would be to persuade Parliament to enact the necessary legislation to allow Mandy to be a candidate for the H of C in time for a by-election in South Shields.
Thanks for the hat-tip.
The Smithson effect is rather fast.
Ladbrokes are not accepting bets on David Miliband. PP odds on Miliband now down to 2/1.
Slightly off-topic, it occurred to me a while ago that this parliament has had an unusually high proportion of by-elections caused by resignation (6) compared with death (8). Of the 8 MPs who have died since 2005, 3 of them already knew at the time of the general election that they were terminally ill. Of the 6 resignations, 4 were top-level famous MPs rather than ordinary anonymous backbenchers.
I agree with John Loony at 5 - no way does legislation get passed to allow Mandelson to give up a Life Peerage before a by-election (although a by-election could be three months away yet).
I actually don’t think Mandelson would give up the Life Peerage - the only incentive would to become PM, which Brown wouldn’t support, so it won’t happen.
The odds I’m interested in are Mandelson as next Foreign Secretary. He’s always wanted his grandfather’s old job, he sacrificed the chance in June to stop Miliband from quitting and bringing down the government entirely, but if Miliband is going of his own volition, he must be the favourite.
There’s still some cash at 6.0 on Betfair (Mandelson for next Foreign Sec) - I can’t take it from the US, but someone should…
The punchups between a Cameron government and a Miliband European foreign ministry will be quite spectacular.
Oh, and on the substance of the piece, I can’t think of a worse candidate for EU HRFA than David Miliband.
The Indian PM slated him in public, the Russian FM screamed expletives down the phone at him - only 2 of the 4 most important relationships the EU has (plus China and the US), and he’ll damage both of them.
The EU HRFA should have gone to Mandelson - a true Europhile, former Commissioner (for a serious portfolio), and perfect for it in every way.
Our Glorious Leader has done an interview with the Chester Chronicle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDPSr3BB_dk
The gurning when he says good morning, at about 25 seconds in, has to be seen to be believed! It’s even worse than the expenses proposal video. It really is like Mr Bean.
11. I think even Mr Bean would have given a better answer than this to the petition I signed:
“Details of Petition:
“There are many reasons why we might want Brown to resign, but rather than having lots of narrow petitions on this topic (most of which have been rejected), I wanted one for all of us.”
“Read the Government’s response
The Prime Minister is completely focussed on restoring the economy, getting people back to work and improving standards in public services. As the Prime Minister has consistently said, he is determined to build a stronger, fairer, better Britain for all.”
I’ll be surprised if Mandelson doesn’t get it, especially now “The Project” can be carried on by remote control from Brussels. If he wangles the job for Miliband1 it does make you think the only obvious reason is to make room for Miliband2 to replace McDoom.
Milliband as Foreign Secretary is good for the Tories.
Milliband as European Pooh Bah is good for the Tories.
Mandy as a peer is good for the Tories.
Mandy as an MP is good for the Tories.
The Tories can do no wrong and if they don’t reach 649 seats in the next parliament then it will be obvious that idiot party NuLabour has been fiddling the postal votes. South Shields is an obvious Tory gain and would have been last time but for the postal ballots.
4. Please, after the prospect of Tony running Europe, Miliband must look like the Prince of Peace.
Anyway I’m glad that Peter Mandelson finally gets to live his dream of being Foreign Secretary! He has such an inspiring life story. It’s like “Rudy,” if Rudy was a viperish center-right politician instead of some football-playing dolt.
I cannot see why Miliband is so highly regarded. I can see why Brown would push the idea as it gets rid of a problem but why Europe would possibly want the guy I’m at a loss.
13 now “The Project” can be carried on by remote control from Brussels
Since the Cameroons are essentially Blairites, “the project” will continue from Downing Street.
6,8 the Smithson effect has indeed seen Ladbrokes stop taking bets, and the equally powerful Morus effect has smashed the Mandelson price on Betfair.
16…the EU is about mediocrity.
As I said yesterday, anyone relying on Cameron to reclaim powers from the EU without the threat of leaving altogether is whistling in the wind.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6903668.ece
“The Indian PM slated him in public”
Woah. Miliban must be a real piece of work coze Cr. Manhoman Singh is well known for his temperance and equanimity.
Dr. Singh, not Cr…
I’m writing from a crappy internet cafe in Laos. Sorry.
I understand that as an ex EU commissioner if Mandelson slags off the EU he loses his pension (extremely generous). I’m sure he’s quite happy being the lord high this or that and doesn’t need to be PM
The same is true for other ex comms. The foreign high representative is also a commissioner. So how can Milliband D., once his time is done, ever hope to be accepted as PM if his financial loyalty is to Brussels.
This is a far bigger scandal than MP’s expenses - that once you are a commissioner you are bribed to stay loyal to Brussels once you go back to your own country.
22
Also of course when he became a Commissioner Mandelson swore an oath of loyalty to the EU, as will Milliband. At the hearings into his appointment Mandelson stated:
“I have moved on. I am not a House of Commons man, I am a European Parliament man. I am not a British Labour government man, I am a European Commission man. I know where my interests, loyalties and allegiances lie and I will not be found wanting in that area, but only time will tell.”
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/press/audicom2004/resume/041001_mandelson_EN.pdf
Why wouldn’t Mandy want the EU job himself?
Having moved on from Johnson and predicted that Miliband was now a near certainty to become Labour leader this doesn’t surprise me at all.
OT. I flicked through testerday’s thread and came accross this from Richard Nabavi. It qualifies as PB.Com’s ‘…and the Pope’s a Catholic’
“I posted earlier that my first impressions of Cameron’s speech were favourable, and on reflection, and reading some of the excellent points made by PB.com posters, I’m confirmed in that view”.
So how can Milliband D., once his time is done, ever hope to be accepted as PM if his financial loyalty is to Brussels.
Nick Clegg became Lib Dem leader despite the same problem. Surprise surprise he then cheated us out of a referendum.
Would choosing Bananaboy not be a ‘hostile act’?
How are these sinecures filled? I’d be really interested to know exactly what the formal mechanics of deciding who gets which role are. Is there some sort of behind closed doors vote? Who votes? If no vote then whose decision is it? What role if any for national governments in the process? It’s all very clandestine.
Given that Bananaboy is from the Labour party, it is pretty much certain that he will completely suck at the job. When our EU buddies realise they have chosen a muppet for the job could they sack him?
I’m trying to decide if having an utter twat, a British utter twat, as EU Foreign poobah is politically in Dave’s interests or not. Hard to tell really.
Mandy for PM would have Mike wetting himself with excitement!
27. Hostile Act?
Of course this would be a hostile act… but one that would back-fire on the Europeans [and particularly the French]. When the rest of the world sees that the best the EU can do is send a banana-waving pillock-on-his-gap-year to be a ‘High Representative’, the EU ‘Project’ will be irreparably damaged.
Trebles All Round!
I’m rather stunned at this French response. If the aim is to get the UK more engaged with the EU, it’s spectacularly inept.
Time to repeal the gun-laws: I deserve the right to bare arms.
Miliband = Quizling!
Mike. Have you been messing with PB’s wiring again? I am unable to fully open threads with more than 300 comments again. Last night’s thread will only load to half-way through comment 349. This is how things were behaving a few months ago during the comment editing experiment.
French Europe Minister calls Cameron ‘autistic’. Leading the news bulletins. Back to the good old days of Thatcher “Everybody hates us but we don’t care”. This should awaken a few memories……
‘I’m lovin it!’ (Courtesy McDonalds).
“I deserve the right to bare arms”
T-shirts normally help, I find.
‘I’m lovin it!’
Really? Considering Thatcher’s stance was generally popular with the electorate, I’d hve thought with your political views you’d be a bit u[set.
33 Roger, a good row with the French is always a boost for UK politicians, even Tony Blair used that sometimes to prove his patriotism. Equally a gallic insult is a badge of honour.
Does show again how influential a Guardian headline is on the BBC News editors ordering of stories.
33 - When is it offensive to call people ‘autistic’ and when is it not? Is the key factor whether George Osborne is on the giving or the receiving end?
to compare milliband with a gifted autistic person is a disgrace to anyone with autism.
le fou grenouille needs his mouth washed out with sapon. and his **** filled with a banana.
34 Roger was a Thatcher man, back in the day…
Do we take it that Tony’s ambitions to be El Presidente are now lying in ruins? Europe doesn’t need him any more. They have chewed him up and spat him out.
In the end, he sold out his country for a handful of dust.
If a frog or two disagree publically with Cameron, then that will do his position no harm at all.
19. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Nor was it demolished in 30 minutes.
Cameron’s not using threats, but he has left it open that further wider negotiations could take place later, including a referendum.
Cameron can only make a withdrawal threat in two ways. In a manifesto which would probably lose the election given the torrent of abuse from the media. Or from a referendum, which in 2009/2010 he would lose.
All he can do is state his determination not to obey Lisbon. He obviously believes he can win the resulting game of cat and mouse and that public opinion will support his efforts, once they see the issues he picks to fight over.
By 2015 a majority of British might be demanding withdrawal, and a referendum could be won. The eurosceptics who are sulking because the Lisbon target has been missed, have to regroup and rally behind Cameron’s intelligent new programme of non-obedience.
Hague nicely taking the wind out of the Beeb’s sales by linking what Cameron proposed to what happens in other countries. That really was a tactical masterstroke by Cameron and his team.
Off-topic: completely.
On an IT project - public-sector :vomit: - I was working with a fellow Anglo and a Frog. The Anglo asked the following question:
As the frog tried to engage his brain to answer the question - a lengthy process it would seem - I interceded:
And no, I do not have any Prussian blood/heritage!
French Europe Minister is a godsend for the Conservatives. Difficult to argue the policy means nothing when he responds in such terms. Plus many people in the Country are none to keen on the French to start with.
“Miliband for “High” Representative”
Wouldn’t this be taking his conversion to (sic) conservative values a bit far?
42 La gueurre.
And with that, off to shave.
IMHO a degree of the public support for Iraq in the build up was because Chirac was against it - ‘if the French & the Russians don’t like it then it must be the right thing to do’.
35. Ted. Yes it’s still the paper to carry under your arm if you want to impress. I told a client at a casting to count the number of men (models/actors) who come in carrying a copy of the Guardian. Funnily enough females (models/actresses) never do.
43.
It was interesting to see that the Tory response to accusations of being castrated in Europe was offered by ‘cut off’ Willy Hague.
The true blue picture of the reality of the backsliding is presented in the Mail today by Ed Heathcote-Amory who says: “Concessions?? How can Cameron possibly win any at all?”
Don’t worry Teddy boy, he doesn’t want to win any so no problem. Simples!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1225379/Concessions-How-Cameron-possibly-win-all.html
That wrinkled old socialist Steven Glover also weighs in in the Mail accusing Khammy of running up the white flag. Could he be the secret identity behind PB ‘tim’?
47: You mean its the paper to impress in your arty-farty advertising world.
48. We win concessions because we provide the 2nd biggest net contribution.
French reaction to Tories on Europe shows how weak Labour have been http://tinyurl.com/yfbvofj
The Times pours a bit of cold water on High Pooh Bah-nana by suggesting the deal being worked out also involves next president of the ECB, which the Germans want, which may mean trading an Italian leftist for High Rep. Germans presumably think the ECB is a more important job andd they want a good prudent German banker there.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6903699.ece
As the High Rep will have more power or influence than the President of the Council I wonder how a left wing High Rep will work with a load of Christian Democrats/centre right governments. Would be great for Cameron to have a Belgian President and Italian Socialist High Rep, can’t see a real common Foreign and Security policy being developed in that case.
50.
Dream on, Woody boy. Firstly nither Khammy nor his Euro crew have any guts for a fight on anything. Secondly, even if they did, the whole non-constitutional treaty thing we’ve just had enacted gets rid of what was left of that tactic. We say we want this. They (27) say No, now run along little boys. We say…er…we say…..er…we say…..Help!!! Tony!!! Help!!!!!!
52 You realise what a lost cause these carved-up democracy-free European senior posts are when these “one from the left, one from the right” compromises are made. It would be like Obama getting the top job, but being told his foreign policy was still being run by Dick Cheney…
53.
Another potential candidate for PB ‘tim’, Roger Helmer MEP uses this morning’s Platform article to enunciate clearly on Khmeroen’s new European policy:
“What we have is an essentially cosmetic policy. We are installing a largely ineffective burglar alarm when the family silver has already been stolen….”
Miliband as Euro Foregn minister? Jesus wept, The worst foregn secretary bar none European foreign minister. It beggars belief. Is it April 1st?
I find it revealing that opponents of a Eurosceptic approach believe that such an approach will be opposed by all EU members just because the French don’t like it.
“Khmeroen’s new European policy”
Eh? Who?
Guardian spelling error.
Hannan has developed something of a cult status in parts of the Tory party for his strong Eurosceptic views
Is the correction to Hatton or cult?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/05/daniel-hannan-quits-over-lisbon
MM. “Roger was a Thatcher man, back in the day”
I’d sooner have had an extraction without anaesthetic!
60.
But the prior insertion was SO pleasurable?
33/36/37 Guardianista hypocrisy at using autism as a term of abuse is particularly two faced, even for them. Surely they should be up in arms at this French Minister? George Osborne didn’t even use the word and they were full of wrath and righteous indignation. As ever, their ‘principles’ are exposed as pure political posturing.
57 Their oddest belief is that a British government has no bargaining power at all, despite paying huge contributions into the EU.
Memo to David Camaeron.
Put a height limit on people who can become Tory MPs.
Excessively tall Tories make poor MPs.
Douglas Carswell.
Bill Cash
Daniel Kawczyinski
Chris Grayling.
Maybe its the oxygen to brain/altitude thing.
Still reading previous thread, but….
#48, by wage slave November 5th, 2009 at 7:34 am
43.
It was interesting to see that the Tory response to accusations of being castrated in Europe was offered by ‘cut off’ Willy Hague….
WS, you are really becoming formulaic. The highlighted comment told me to ignore all that followed.
Everyone should be free to express themselves, and all should read the opinions as posted. Unfortunately your attempt at ‘humah’ is unoriginal and irritating.
I’ve tried to change my posting style, not least because I found it annoying. Just an idea for you though….
58.
Khmereon is the tortured little boy who has penned a letter to Sun readers vowing to keep Britain independent.
Did nice uncle Rupee hold the pen for you while you were doing it so you kept the lines straight? And I bet he gave you some chocolate money for Christmas for promising to be more and more like cousin Tony!
Wage slave. Why the ‘Kh’ instead of ‘C’ for Cameron. Is it like Khmer Rouge because he’s a ‘Red’?
Here’s the important political news of the day.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1225348/Lembit-Opik-lingerie-girl-split–Now-theres-surprise.html
*** BETTING POST ***
Despite the collective PB effect having removed all the value from Miliband for EU High Pooh Bah markets, you can still sell him on the SPIN Next Labour Leader market
64 The LibDems should do a similar thing but with a minimum height requirement…
And come the election, the new wave of Labour PPC’s are merely going to require a pulse. Imagine, wanting to join up and fight for Labour next time out - they are going to be a fright…
55 Wage Slave - that’s the point Helmer & co don’t get - the moment the Czechs ratified the family silver had been stolen & melted down, gone and it can’t be restored. They know that, they know that a UK referendum on Lisbon post ratification can’t undo the already changed EU so they storm against the dying of the light.
The Banana republic represented by Banana Man
You know it makes sense.
68 Perhaps she got bored with Lembit’s face being perpetualy at a 30 degree angle to his head… (Look at the photos to see what I mean!)
72 *sustained applause*
We’re so late in the Parliament that Mandy could be given the Foreign Office from the Lords.It is far more likely than rushing through powers to enable him to renounce a Lifepeerage and gives no hostages to fortune.
Sarah Montague’s interview with Stephen Wall and Lord Tebbitt didn’t go according to plan. She even gave Tebbit an opportunity to squash UKIP and advocate voting Tory to get rid of “this wretched government”. She tried to cut him off before the the words out, but the damage was done. According to Wall French ministers calling Conservatives autistic eunuchs is just “a negotiating position”
71
Actually Ted they always knew that which is why rather than storming against the dying of the light they are heralding a new dawn of complete withdrawal from the EU. That is what Helmer, Hannan and Carswell amongst others have always advocated and that is what will be the inevitable result of what has happend over the last few days.
Better get used to it. It won’t be quick but it is coming.
“Khmereon is the tortured little boy”
Eh?
Wage slave, are you sure you are on the right site? You appear to be talking about people unknown in the political sphere.
75.
“gives no hostages”
can we not swop him with that nice couple held in Somalia. He’s be a VERY foreign secretary then!
Back home, I se the troughers looking for 100k salaries are led by purple Labour’s top Tory Stuart Bell. Bell by name ad hollow dull tones by nature.
And the flipping (sic) parliamentary hypocrites are talking of prosecuting parents of primary school kids for…er…. making false declarations on where their real main home is!
You could not make it up, could you?
If Mandy did try and do a stitch up to get back in the Commons as MP for South Shields - would there be any mileage in the LibDems and the Tories standing aside (although lending their local support) to an anti-Mandy candidate? It does look as solid Labour as you get* - but if this Parliament has shown us anything, it is that the voters aren’t in the mood to simply acquiesce in the games politicians play.
There doesn’t look to be an obvious local celebrity candidate, couple of Big Brother/X Factor wannabees. Otherwise it would be left to Sir Ridely Scott or Eric Idle to pick up the gauntlet…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_Shields_people
*Recently visited South Shields to see the Eastern Crowned Warbler…
Ted. Cameron promised a referendum ‘whatever’ the circumstances. Yesterday was the classic politicians 5 card trick. A poseur in the Thatcherite mould.
To continue mangling Dylan Thomas ‘he went far too gently into that goodnight’
79.
Private Pike has been preserved in aspic and thawed out on PB as ‘David’, the ‘unknown in the political sphere’ commetator.
“Silly boy!”
82.
“he went far too gently into that goodnight’”
I thought that was Mark Field???
“Cameron promised a referendum ‘whatever’ the circumstances”
No he didn’t. Only if the treaty had not been ratified.
77 I realise that, BOO had hoped they could bounce Cameron into a referendum which would be in fact In/Out, but that needed the pretense the family silver was still recoverable.
Cameron’s honesty that the time had past to stop Lisbon and it was now about how the UK could best protect it’s interests within the new EU pushed their hoped for referendum into the far future. It’s that that they rage about, no In/Out referendum.
Odd that Europhiles & Europhobes are united in attacking Cameron - I suppose both fear he’ll be successful.
O/T Today is the first day of the General Election campaign here in Equatorial Guinea.
Although I don’t expect many value betting opportunities
73.
“Lembit’s face being perpetualy at a 30 degree angle to his head”
Provides an interesting variety to certain activities??
83. Indeed. Never Trusst a Tory!
80- Eric Idle MP. Awesome.
I don’t want to be a comedian, I want to be… a member of parliament!
“Private Pike has been preserved in aspic and thawed out on PB as ‘David’, the ‘unknown in the political sphere’ commetator. ”
Is English your third language?
re 81. so what’s you prediction for the next round of voting intention polls? Are we going to see a massive boost for all parties other than the Tories?
You who are so wise - what is your prediction?
This after all is the ONLY thing that matters this far out from a general election.
84.
David’s brought his own story book with him now. And he’s siting nicely in the corner. Let’s not disturb him for he looks so happy and contented in his own private little world.
82 wage slave - “Stupid boy….”
And we all know that Private Pike = Nick Clegg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/dadsarmy/img/gallery/01/BAP_BBC_5205.jpg
80 Wounded soldier would work as a “stop Mandelson’s 17th pension” candidate.
89.
The (official) Tories already have Eric the Idle MP. Or was it Bradford?
86. MM. Last time you were in Maui. Are you an explorer retired or a film groupie?
91 - Is their any polling data on whether Hagues ratings have improved with the public since his spell as the least popular Opposition leader since Foot?
re 95. As a Lib Dem Wage Slave underestimate Eric Pickles at your peril.
96. Presumably he’s there planning a coup. It’s what all fashionable men about town do these days, don’tcha know.
96 Just a bloke who gets about a bit
The film industry in Equatorial Guinea is, er, nascent. Take out a camera near the Presidential Palace - and see how much stock you get to use!!
Explorer is a little nearer the mark….
JARHEAD - Day Twenty Nine, Part I
Timeline : Thursday 6th May 2010. O735am.
Location : Auchentennach Village Hall Polling Station, Highlands, Scotland.
Dramatis Personae : The Jacobite Laird of Auchentennach.
…………………………………………………
The polling station was a hub of activity as the Laird of Auchentennach and his Chatelaine arrive to vote. The early rush of four voters had come, voted but stayed and other villagers and estate workers gathered as the local aristocrats of Aucnentennach progressed to the election officials amid polite applause.
Their duty done the duo worked the small crowd as camera flashlights momentarily caught the historic moment in the history of this Scottish community.
The Laird stopped and warmly greeted Chief Inspector Hamish Struan-Stuart of Highland Constabulary who was making his rounds of polling stations. Loud guffaws of laughter from the two followed as they made their way onto the High Street where the Laird’s 1938 black Rolls Royce Phantom III Sedanca De-Ville stood guard, the huge P100 headlights holding court over the long village road. The two men entered the cavenous rear compartment of the vehicle and the laird motioned to the large central walnut compartment. The policeman nodded.
The fine Glentennach single malt poured well from the crystal decanter and the laird opened a nearby wicker basket to reveal a fine selection of Auchentennach pies. The men smiled and ate and drank well, very well and both congratulated each other on a fine start to election day.
“Any news of the latest missing tourist” asked the Laird. “None at all” replied the officer of the law. The cousins each broke out in a huge smile.
Labour voters elected Shaun Woodward in St Helens and Peter Mandelson in Hartlepool. I have no doubt whatsoever that unless some utterly fantastic independent candidate stands and Tories and LD’s withdraw, Mandelson would win in South Shields. If there is a by election, if he decides to stand, if he is able to get out of the Lords.
Personally I think he’s better in the Lords, he isn’t short of cash, he has power without responsibility and if he becomes Labour leader that means 5-10 years in opposition (at least) and somehow I don’t think he would put his duty to his party ahead of his own interests. If he did become Leader of HM loyal opposition I think he would be brilliant at it, he may even be remembered as one of the best party leaders the country has seen. His resourcefulness and communication skills combined with his ability to impose discipline on the party make him a natural. PMQ’s between Cameron and Mandelson would be brilliant too. On the other hand I can’t see him ever winning a leadership election.
You shouldn’t listen to rumours, Mike!
Somethigin I learnt this momrnig from the 6.55 slot on Today:
Apparently the EU las “has had supremacy” over the law of EEC/EU nation states since 1964 :-0
WTF??? Can this be true?!
BOO looks good suddenly
re 97 I don’t think that’s the case. It got worse with IDS. see chart here -
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2499
I agree with the general point - Hague is by a long way Cameron’s weakest link which is why Labour never really goes after him.
The key figure there is Osborne who is the sharpest knife in the box - way ahead of Mandy.
Listening to R4s news headlines, we have the French minister shrieking about autistic eunuchs and fringe Euro sceptics maintaining Cameron’s stance is soft. They neutralise each other, positioning Cameron exactly where he wants to be - on the centre ground. His opponents on both sides of the argument come across as deranged and out of touch.
96.
Much as I admire your Tory fundraising idea Mike (beats ‘misunderestimate the weight of the cake!’), my references were geographical rather than temperamental. Idle, Yorks, is part of Bradford MBC which was where a certain stout party born in Keighly was once councillor.
105. I agree Hague is weak, but I thought he was now rather popular with the public?
re 107. At the Bedford open primary in September one of the short-listed candidate made even Pickles seem svelte-like. I was a bit worried when both him and the Tory chairman were on the stage together.
91. Cameron is slowly being coaxed out of his comfort zone of cycle shorts huskies and windmills. It’s too early for any shifts in the polls but a few more tests like yesterday and you could well see project ‘Mr Nice Guy’ unfold pretty quickly
re 100. You’ve been saying that for three and a half years Roger. I’m coming to a conclusion that you might not be the best judge of what voters are looking for in a leader/presidential candidate.
110.
In such circumstances you should then have offered up the chair to the new svelte Sir Cyril Smith, who always had a way of charming Tories.
re 111. Roger - remember your brilliant call here from May 2005
http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2005/05/26/could-this-man-be-the-next-president-of-the-united-states/
See comment 1.
“The key figure there is Osborne who is the sharpest knife in the box - way ahead of Mandy.”
What possible grounds have you got for saying that? (The second bit I mean-the first part isn’t difficult)
105 - I’m susprised they’re not using Francois more, he has less baggage re Europe to be quoted back at him and doesn’t remind voters of the pre Cameron Tory Party.
105.
“Osborne…. is the sharpest knife in the box - way ahead of Mandy.”
I’m sure colleagues of both will be lining up to offer their shoulderblades as targets in the political masterchef final!
64. Oi. You may be a stunted dwarf but that’s no excuse for heightism.
116 It’s the LibDems that really shouldn’t be allowed to play with knives!
On that happy note, off for meetings and stuff. Te-rah a bit….
95. No, Terry Rooney is the Idle MP - for the next five months anyway.
re 114. He’s the key architect of the Cameron project -
Check out the charts here -
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2499
Morning all.
I think people might be getting a wee bit ahead of themselves here. Miliband cannot possibly have ‘accepted’ the role, since it cannot be offered to him without the at least formal consent of the meeting of the 27 countries. It may well be that he is one of the front-runners in the horse-trading which is no doubt going on, and it may also be that he has indicated that he would accept, were the post to be offered to him, but I doubt if anything is 100% fixed yet.
I would be much more inclined to accept the account given in The Times (see Ted’s link at 52):
“Soundings will also be taken on Monday for the job of EU foreign minister, for which David Miliband is considered a leading candidate should Mr Blair fall out of the presidential reckoning. Massimo D’Alema, a left-wing former Italian Prime Minister, has emerged as the Foreign Secretary’s main rival.”
64/118.
“Excessively tall Tories make poor MPs.”
And tim’s counter argument is John Bercow…Sarah Teather….Ian McCartney….Nunky Dunky….Hazel Blears…..
115. Presumably because Europe as an issue is far more likely to cost Cameron votes from his own party, rather than from the centre ground. Using Hague gives his policy a bit more credibility with the Eurosceptics.
Is the BBC News website being incredibly slow for anyone else?
“Cameron is slowly being coaxed out of his comfort zone of cycle shorts huskies and windmills. It’s too early for any shifts in the polls but a few more tests like yesterday and you could well see project ‘Mr Nice Guy’ unfold pretty quickly”
Which would be fully to the Conservatives advantage.
The pandering to guardianistas has won the Conservatives no votes and this is a pretty angry country at the moment which would rather hit a hoodie than hug one.
What champagne socialists like Roger think and want is generally the exact opposite of what the WWC in Conservative target seats want.
re 122. Come on. Europe is a non-issue as I’ve been arguing here for years. Nobody gives a stuff and the election is a referendum on Brown.
Voters will either back the government or take the best route to get rid of it.
104
“Apparently the EU las “has had supremacy” over the law of EEC/EU nation states since 1964
WTF??? Can this be true?!”
Yep. 15th July 1964 ECJ ruling that Community law superceeded national laws.
Not something Heath or Wilson advertised too widely in the early 70s.
113. Mike. Thanks to that prediction I’ve given you the opportunity to link to your 2005 Obama headline hundreds of times! I deserve an award for getting you recognized as one of the country’s finest tipsters!
re 123. Yes - I’m having problems as well with the BBC site.
re 127. Indeed Roger and it’s much appreciated.
Mike, Is the very mention of certain MPs now an immediate reference to moderation??? I have just posted the mildest thing imaginable with no adjective good or bad in it about same. Presumbly m’learned friends have been earning their crust?
People generally don’t give a diddly squit about Europe, it barely registers on peoples radar (3 percent according to the last Ipsos survey thought it was important). I fully expect that come the election it will make no differance to the way people vote. Much more important immediate problems are on peoples minds.
On topic, I’d take that report with a pinch of salt. Anyone who can so blithely ignore the massive hurdle Mandleson faces in becoming candidate for a South Shields by-election doesn’t know their stuff. To be honest, the ‘Labour source’ thing again has a whiff of Brown playing his lieutenants off against each other.
That’s one of the reasons Brown has survived even this long as Labour leader: the lack of an obvious clear alternative. While there are too many, it’s difficult to get the necessary momentum behind any one of them to mount a successful coup (or even a damaging unsuccessful one). Why would Brown want to remove such a useful piece in that game?
I agree with Morus at [10] - Mandy himself would make a very credible candidate for EUHRFA and as such have backed him at 25/1. He may have harboured dreams of being Foreign Secretary but with just six months to the election, is it really worth it when he could get up to five years as Foreign Secretary for the whole EU?
re 130 The reason your post got held up was because of all the dots - a common feature used by spammers.
131 and earlier.
I have said all along since way back before it became news the last couple of weeks that the EU issue will not have a noticable effect on the election. Mike is right on that score. It is all about Brown and Labour.
Where it will have an effect is after the election when people realise that Cameron’s promises are empty because he cannot fulfill them. That is when the EU will become an issue.
105. I agree with the general point - Hague is by a long way Cameron’s weakest link which is why Labour never really goes after him.
The key figure there is Osborne who is the sharpest knife in the box - way ahead of Mandy.
Hague was only weak as a leader. In a supporting role he is exceptional. If he was an easy target, Labour would get after him, don’t you worry.
I don’t quite get Osborne, although he is completely loyal to Cameron, and acts as a foil to him, being a little bit more punchy, allowing Cameron to appear the milder-natured one.
126 The ECJ claimed supremacy on the basis of their understanding of the Treaties but the German Constitutional Court has not accepted that and in UK the Queen in Parliament being sovereign and no acts of previous Parliaments having priority over the latest laws that depends on the Supreme Court accepting ECJ supremacy in trials but before it.
YUK. I see Cameron has sent out an email under the following heading
“A policy on Europe that people can believe in”
Isn’t that plagiarising the famous Obama campaign slogan? Ugh.
136. RT
Spot on.
And unlike in previous Conservatives governments there is now a respectable alternative right-wing party for disillusioned Conservative supporters.
I see the East Coast main line is being re-nationalised.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8343769.stm
I wonder how much more that is going to cost the tax-payers.
Loved this from the Mail.
The Mail still believes that Mr Cameron has the potential to be a considerable Prime Minister. What the f**k does that mean?
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1225317/A-sorry-day-Britain-democracy-Tories.html#ixzz0VyPcFUIX
So Helmer and Hannan have both resigned their, ‘front bench positions’ whatever they are?
Didn’t have the guts to go the whole hog of course.
‘UKIP in the heart, Tory in the wallet’
Roger/Mike - do you have a prediction for US president 2012 ?
Obama is around 2.1 on betfair - seems a good price to me - surely the next 3 years cant be as bad as this one for him ?
139.
““A policy on Europe that people can believe in””
in the same way people believe in the Cargo Cult?
Look at the papers today and some pretty mainstream Tory MPs and MEPs (and Steven Pollard) don’t believe in it at all.
127. Mike - you keep saying that and it’s just wrong for two main reasons.
Firstly, lots of people do ‘give a stuff’; however, they don’t see it as of as much immediate importance as the economy, health servive, crime or education (or - in coming months - tax). Even so, the UKIP vote at the Euroelection shows that there’s a substantial reservoir of discontent who are willing to make their voice heard when the vote’s not too important. Beyond them, there are others who dislike the way the EU project has gone but where the issue is just noise. There’s a big gap between something being a most important issue and of no significance at all.
Secondly - and more crucially - of those who do care a lot, many are political party members, activists and elected representatives so even if few are that bothered, those few wield disproportional influence on the system. A handful of Maastrict rebels created havoc for John Major. This is particularly the case for the Pro lobby: there aren’t all that many who are fervently pro-EU but there are lots at the top of the Labour and Lib Dem parties.
I agree that Europe as an issue will not be a big player with the public during the next year or so but that the issue could disrupt the effectiveness of one or more main parties makes it a potent one nonetheless.
Morning all and having said a couple of days ago that Gordon Brown would rather sacrifice a handful of seats in by-elections than surrender the keys of No 10 before the GE, I would not be surprised to see Millibland the Elder go to Europe.
It may even be behind the rather pathetic remarks attributed to the French Foreign Minister in the Guardian this morning.
Clearly Cammo’s announcement yesterday has got the Froggies all worried that we might stop subsidising their cushy lifestyles since we give to the EU and they take.
Do any people outside the Labour and LibDem elite and profligate sections of the public sector read the Guardian? Hopefully after the GE when Cameron banns public sector press advertising it will disappear and take La Toynbee and the rest of her pathetic out of touch cronies with her.
141. The sad thing is that the cost to taxpayers will hardly be noted - compared with the telephone numbers for the bank bail out everyone is innured to spending huge sums of “government” money.
+++ BORED +++
Have posted a petition at No. 10:
If accepted, please sign….
There’s a very interesting bit in The Times article (see Richard Tyndall’s link at 19). The article says that Cameron won’t be successful in repatriating any powers. I disagree, but this bit was very striking:
“EU legal experts say that the chances of success are unclear, largely because the notional supremacy claimed by the German system has never been tested in specific cases.
The European Union runs its single market on the principle that its laws take precedence in those areas where Brussels has been given powers in successive treaties. To back away from that could lead to other nations rejecting the principle that underpins the single market.”
If it is true that there is legal uncertainty, that is another powerful lever for Cameron in seeking concessions. The EU won’t want to risk the whole edifice collapsing.
It would be extremely funny if Millibland the Elder goes to Europe for his new banana job, Lord Fop announces he is to stand in the by-election and then Cammo and the Crossbenchers prevent the law passing enabling his Lordship to relinquish his Life Peerage and instead they get some Trade Union baron like the Post Office man, duly rewarded for destroying the national postal service.
Good Morning Auchentennach Voters For Nick Palmer Worldwide (He May Need Them)
Meanwhile …. It’s polling day on JARHEAD !!!!!!!!!!! …. Is the server ready Mike ?!?!
138
This is the ruling and it is quite clear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_v_ENEL
This has also been accepted in the UK more recently in the Metric Martyrs case where the appeal court ruled that as long as the 1972 EC act was in force, EU law did have supremecy over UK law.
The court decided that the EU law was a ‘constitutional law’ on a par with the 1689 Bill of rights and therefore was not subject to the process known as ‘implied repeal’. This means that it always has precedent over any subsequent UK law and that any previously emplaced laws have to be interepreted in such a way as to not conflict with EU law.
So whatever the German Constitutional Court may decide, this has already been settled as far as English Law is concerned.
Did everyone else get a reply from No 10 yesterday re the Petition Gordon Must Go? I did but I have been too disinterested to go to the weblink to read it.
136.Richard, I don’t think we know we will know for sure how Cameron’s programme of disobedience will pan out. It’s a new ball game which we haven’t experienced before.
If Cameron can make the EU lose face over his chosen issues by featuring their effects and getting the public angry at his impotence, the percentage who want withdrawal could rise to more than 50% making the referendum IN/OUT finally a viable way to end rule by the EU in Britain.
152 Richard I am glad you are online. I apologise for being out of line yesterday. Not like me. Sorry
144 - Poor WaggY “I’m no narcissist, oh not meeee” Slav, having to rely on Carswell and Helmer as “pretty mainstream”. He’ll have his favourite Tory lady, his mum, telling him off for that one.
147
Another, ‘botched’ privatisation that the taxpayer will have to bail out: energy next.
156 John O. Are you in the Hersham committee rooms to repel the yellow peril !!
155
Not a problem Easterross. I am well aware I wind people up and I honestly don’t do intentionally (I just get overexcited) but I am willing to take the consequences when I do.
Tis in the past.
128 Richard Tyndall
But what does it mean in practice? The speed limit is 70mph, which we decide. It surely doesn’t mean a British copper can’t nick me for doing 71mph, which is slightly below 120kph?!
A flippant example I’m sure - but we do have our own laws don’t we? I must be missing something.
Had to laugh at this French bloke getting so upset and throwing his toys out the pram. Should add a few tory votes. Hate to think what he would say if Cameron proposed reforming the CAP gravy train
157
The crying shame about this is that when it was being run by GNER it was a very good service making a healthy profit and was widely acclaimed as one of the best run lines on the network.
It was only becasue the parent company got into money trouble for matters unrelated to GNER that they had to surrender the franchise. Since then it has deteriorated rapidly and the latest proposed schedules shhow a lot of cuts in services which are angering commuters.
160
All it means is that in any area where there is a conflict between UK and EU law, EU law has precedent. This normally exhibits itself in appeals to the ECJ by individuals or companies where they feel they have been unfairly penalised by UK law. I think one of the most prominant recent cases was the VAT ruling which resulted in a huge rebate bill for the government. But that is just off the top of my head.
re 145. I disagree. If lots of people did “give a stuff” then surely they would tell MORI when asked to list as many of the key issues facing the country as they would like.
yes BBC site is SLOOOOOOOOOOWW today
160/162
I should add of course that conflicts are not that common because part of the framing process of UK law as it passes through Parliament is to ensure there is no conflict with EU legilsation and any new EU legislation is put through on the nod and enacted as UK law.
The one people will have seen a lot of recently is the energy efficieny ratings in Home sellers packs. That is an EU requirement adopted into UK law.
OoooH dear, think UKIP have just landed a new recruit and pinup girl,(to good to link) Melanie.
So now we finally have the unequivocal answer to the question some of us have been insistently asking: what is the point of the Conservative party? The answer is, bleakly, there is none.
There is today one overwhelmingly important issue of issues, the meta-issue without the resolution of which it is pointless to address any other issue. It is the issue of whether the United Kingdom is to continue as a sovereign nation able to govern itself in accordance with its own laws, culture and traditions or not. The Lisbon constitutional treaty which, with the Czech Republic’s agonised capitulation, has now been ratified by every member of the EU does away with the sovereignty of member nations that it has been steadily eroding for so many years in pursuit of the goal of creating a European super-state.
This anti-democratic entity, this chimaera, the bureaucratic regime of Euroland, has now come into being. The big question for the conservative leader David Cameron is what he is going to do to restore Britain’s power to govern itself. Yesterday we had the tragic answer. He will do nothing that will have the slightest effect. His announcement that he would not hold a referendum on the Lisbon treaty because it had now passed into law was not the issue. Of course it is pointless holding a referendum on a treaty which is no longer blockable. The real point is that, since it has now been passed and thus subsumed Britain’s ability to govern itself as a sovereign nation into the new republic of Euroland without the people having been consulted about the loss of their ability to govern themselves, the people must now be given the opportunity to say whether they wish to remain in the EU or not.
Cameron did not ofer them this opportunity. Instead he came up with a set of risibly weak proposals. He intends to repatriate powers from Brussels to Westminster. Really? How? What leverage will he have to bring back any powers at all from a body to which this country has now surrendered its sovereignty? He said he would
seek to pass a UK sovereignty Bill ‘to make it clear that ultimate authority stays in this country, in our Parliament’.
But such a bill would be an absolutely pointless gesture because ultimate authority would have been passed to the EU. And even more ludicrous, he promised that ‘never again’ would Britain give away such powers without a referendum. Doesn’t he get it? There won’t be any more powers now to give away.
It is hard to think of a more craven, pathetic spectacle than David Cameron’s performance yesterday. Faced with the greatest single test of his statesmanship, he flunked it and ran up the white flag instead. He put his own political interests in keeping his party together above those of the nation.
As a result, he has made himself and his party irrelevant. He may well win the next general election by default because of the collapse of the Labour government. But what is the point of any of them now since they will have no more power than Westminster regional council in the republic of Euroland.
Corrrr, look at the froth on those lips!!
I’m detecting a lot of extreme Tory love in the side-markets.Still pockets of resistance for Labour at 9.0 in the Most Seats but they are fighting on the landing grounds if not yet in the hills.
“A policy on Europe that people can believe in”
Given the total emptiness
Why not “Loose change you can believe in”
163
I repeat the point I made yesterday which you continue to ignore Mike. People are quite capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. In the same way they are quite capable of ranking priorities when asked and whilst they may not place the EU highly on a list, that does not mean they don’t care about it. They just care about other things either a little or a lot more.
If I had to rank the members of your family in some way, say by those who gave ,me the most concern for their well being, I would probably put kids and 89 year old granny first as they give me the most concern. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t care about my wife or sister, just that in the present circumstances they are not the ones most needing of my attention.
This is why your ‘don’t give a sh*t’ comment is wrong. This is also why when the debate turns specifically to the issue of the EU such as at Euro elections, we get a better idea of what people really think about the EU.
#168, by tim November 5th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Why not “Loose change you can believe in”
Oi, Farmer Tupac!
Should you not be clearing my petition from the [No. 10] bunker? Jeez, I even name-checked ya’…!
‘my family’ not ‘your family’
168. tim - surely the firm committment from Labour of “unconditional surrender” will be a winner with voters rather than this flim flam from Cam ?
When are the next polls ? UKIP to 10% and a Labour lead ?
BRING BACK TONY!
:d
172
Mike’s rule number whatever. Cameron in the news, Tory increase. Even bad news is good news when Brown is your opponent.
169
Richard
You are coming across as obsessed with Europe.
Remind me why parties collapse? They become obsessed with issues they are unable to resolve.
Fortunately UKIP is a natural outlet.
re 161. My favourite GNER moment was while waiting for a south-bound train at the wonderful York station the announcer came on the tannoy to say. “GNER apologises to passengers on platform 3″.
No reason for this apology was given. It was just left hanging.
Maybe Mr. Brown ought to adopt a similar course?
176
Mike
In Gordon’s thinking he has nothing to apologise for. Like nothing.
169. People don’t give a sh*t. But they would give a sh*t if they knew what was going on.
Cameron’s campaign of non-obedience to Lisbon will be a drip drip drip expose of how EU rules impact on our lives, issue by issue, run with full tabloid support. By 2015, there will be a majority who want out.
They won’t vote in the GE about the EU, I agree with Mike. But they will ultimately vote OUT in an IN/OUT referendum.
If a few more Frenchmen can come out and slate Cameron calling him all the names under the sun, he will achieve an OUT majority in the British public a lot quicker!
175
If we keep having threads up about the Eu then it would be ruse not to talk about it. Besides, I am obsessed by it, well for as long as I am on PB. I run a small eurosceptic news service for activists not directly attached to any of the parties so it is something of a hobby with me.
And frankly I don’t care if parties collapse. One of my other obsessions as you may have noted in the past is railing against the power the parties have over MPs. AS such the collapse of parties is something to be celebrated not mourned.
“rude”, not “ruse”
Typing too quick again.
RE Mandelson.South Shields is an opprtunity for him if the Milliband European tranfer goe shaead.He needs to be an MP to reemerge as leader afetr the GE.However no chance of change in law re peers so if hw wants it will hav eto resign abnd fight the byelection.What odds on him doing that?
Re Cameron.I
I’m not a Tory but I think he has played a poor hand very smoothly.All the public will take from this is that he is taking hard line on Europe.With this received message and The MIke smithson principle of Cameron visibility = boost to Tory ratings I can see a short term poll boost rather than the reverse.The only thing that could stop that is if the Tories appear disunited on the issue.
163 Mike,
Perhaps one reason it is not listed high in people’s minds is that they are genuinely disinterested in the European project and want to concentrate on UK affairs. The reason for this is that ‘Europe’ is too far removed from their everyday lives and they have little influence on changing policy. This is slightly different from ‘not giving a stuff’.
Personally I loathe the EU as I think it is just a means by which self serving politians get more money and unelected power. However, there is very little, as an individual voter, that I can do about it.
Realistically, my only hope is that increasingly Eurosceptic parties get elected to power in the UK. Again, realistically, this means the Tories.
Eventually (and this will take years if not decades) the increase in Eurosceptisism will develop into a real move to have an in/out referendum with the government of the day (Tory) supporting the out proposal.
Come the day.
#179, by Richard Tyndall November 5th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Where - the flock excepted - can we sign-up…?
Seems the French are having a go at everyone today.
“Sarkozy warns Visegrad countries not to make a habit of pre-summit meetings”
http://euobserver.com/9/28928/?rk=1
Some UKIP MEP Nikki Sinclaire getting a rough time on expenses and corruption after being billed as “potential UKIP leader” on Radio 5 phone in.
Sounds hopeless.
Sounds hopeless. by tim November 5th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Is that a tautology or a pleanosm…?
183
Email me if you are interested fluffy.
richard.tyndall_at_live.co.uk
I run it in two formats, the easier way is via yahoo groups because they sends out a digest. But for those who don’t like yahoo I also send out the items on an individual mailing list.
If you do join up be warned it is fairly heavy traffic if you are not getting digests as it consists of a lot of articles, newspaper reports and other bits of information from both the pro, anti and neutral EU sources. Though pro sources are actually quiite hard to come by (and that is not a dig, just that they don’t seem to generate much traffic)
163
People might give more of a stuff if they realised what was going on, or more importantly what has already gone on. I am I believe above averagely well-informed politically (mainly because the average is so low) and I had no idea that EU law was “supreme”. This is amazing to me.
How many average Joes in the street also know that? Might that not change their minds?
If a single Tory poster ever, ever, attacks Brown/Clegg or anyone else, for snuggling up to Celebs, sports or showbiz, I’ll hit ‘em with this.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/x-factor/6498923/X-Factor-twins-Jedward-win-David-Camerons-vote.html
We’ve so much to look forward to.
189. As they are from Ireland is this another sop to Europe from Cameron ? Should Dan Hannan now defect to UKIP ?
All this talk about EC corruption and waste may be true (I know it is) but when people look closer to home and see Westminster MPs doing it, then there will be zero resonance when Westminster MPs start on about it.
And as UKIP are as bad as the rest with corrupt MEPs, they are tainted as well.
To succeed you need either a radically cleaned up UKIP (unlikely I suggest) or a new party.
But wdik. I am cynical so expect no better.
The BOO campaign thinks there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. There is not. Westminster will have stolen it.
Never mind Mandy for the Shields by-election - what about Blair? After losing out on the Euro job, he needs something to do - so how about another stint as PM, and fighting his 4th GE?
189
Well sod the EU, that has just lost Cameron the election. How could anyone ever vote for someone so brain dead that they watched X-factor!
(I am only half joking there. I am actually disappointed that our future PM would stoop to such a thing)
pleanosm = Pleonasm.
Why izz-it dat propa peepal can’t spik ingerlish…?
I blame the bl00dy jocks: off for a long-walk me-thinks!
A few bits and pieces from Ladbrokes HQ.
We’ve reactivated our market on whether Dan Hannan becomes a Westminster MP by 2014. He’s now only 3/1.
D Miliband now 7/4 for the High Rep job. Van Rompuy 11/8 for President.
We’ve put a market up on how many votes John Smeaton will get in next week’s byelection.
Evs Under 1000
Evs 1000-2000
6/1 Over 2000.
193
I’m surprised we aren’t having a thread on it!!
196
It might be a short thread. I mean, would anyone actually admit to watching the programme?
I strongly suspect that there will be no by election in South Shields unless Milliband resigns his seat before the end of the year. If he remains an MP until January , there would be no need to move a by election writ until April by which time Parliament will either have been dissolved or about to be!
195 - Any odds on Dan Hannan appearing on Fox News?
QT panel: Peter Hain MP, Nick Herbert MP, Sir Ian Blair, Robert Kilroy-Silk and Natalie Haynes
Christ on a bicycle (man’s bicycle, obviously). Ian Blair and Kilroy-Silk on one edition. Dire.
I hope Blair gets abused by the audience.
O/T UK IP up September, but not nearly enough to offset the big drop in August. So it looks like no upward revision to Q3 GDP from this source - hopes in this area now rest mostly on the services sector.
It still looks like Q4 will show a decent bounce, especially due to the VAT effect, but this might well be dismissed as a one-off for this reason.
Into the new year, the focus will be on the high frequency data to see whether Q1 will see a relapse…and the path of that data could well determine the election date. Plenty of potential scope for betting ops as a result I think because the data around the turn of the year could be even more volatile than usual…..
195 - “We’ve reactivated our market on whether Dan Hannan becomes a Westminster MP by 2014. He’s now only 3/1.”
This is a bit of a tasteless market as you’re basically betting on Cameron having a dead body over which Hannan can become an MP.
192 - Chuckle. Would set the cat amongst the pigeons.
189 – Coldstone, the reason so much derision was heaped on Brown for snuggling up to celebs was because he specifically said he would not. Remember the break from Blair’s way of doing things?
Now when it comes to snuggling up, no one does it better than Lemsip. Having dumped his latest squeeze, look out for Katie Price on the horizon..?
Why is there no LibDem on the QT panel? That’s a bit off.
200. At least two Labour speakers then…
204 - Perhaps Kilroy has mellowed and signed up? They quite often don’t have a Lib Dem which annoys me slightly as a supporter but is probably fair enough.
“They quite often don’t have a Lib Dem which annoys me slightly as a supporter but is probably fair enough.”
Really? I don’t watch it that much any more. I’m not a LibDem supporter, but if they can find room for a barely known comedian and a pillock, then they really should have a LibDem first.
184 Richard T - Hilarious!
French President Nicolas Sarkozy has taken a swipe at Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, who last week met ahead of the EU summit to talk through their positions on the topic of the day.
Speaking after a meeting of EU leaders last week, Mr Sarkozy said “if they have to meet regularly before each council, that could raise questions.”
Given that most EU business has traditionally been stitched up in advance at cosy dinners between the French and Germans, I think that shows considerable chutzpah.
Kilroy? The Anti-wankers league will be demoing outside TVC this week. Could turn nasty.
And I mean that as they are the third main UK party, rather than trying to imply they are comedians and pillocks, before anyone takes unmbrage.
207 - I’m surprised you haven’t made the obvious joke there!
208. The French have traditionally dealt with the CEE countries in an extremely patronising manner. No change here.
207 Genius
203
I’m sorry to say, in their desire to be like the rest of us,(whatever that is) they become too much like the rest of us.
re 181 of course there’s nothing to stop Mandelson standing as the Labour candidate in South Shields as a peer (cf the Viscount Stansgate in the Bristol South East by election in 1961). When elected he just wouldn’t be able to take his seat. It would nevertheless give some extra time to get the necessary legislation enacted to enable him to take his seat.
122: Unusually I completely agree with Richard N. The report makes no sense as worded - there is clearly no job offer yet, so he can’t have accepted it. And as Mike hints, the suggestion that the law could instantly be rewritten to let Mandy stand in a by-election is also unlikely.
That said, the French and German commnets yesterday do suggest that those countries will not be in a mood to pander to Hague over the selections - which possibly increases Tony’s otherwise diminishing chances.
BTW I think the ‘autistic’ line was tasteless in this context as well, in an otherwise well-judged comment. It reinforces the vague idea that autism isn’t really a disease but just an attitude, which is simply wrong.
Damn it.
re 205 well the only thing the smug git Blair cares for is himself. I hope he gets asked repeatedly about his role in the de Menezes murder.
Miliband will be vetoed by the Poles.
202.
Hannan is a big headed self interested attention seeker, who will disagree with whatever he thinks will give him maximum exposure… He is a selfish pr4ck and nothing else !
Think is, Hannan knows his views on the EU aren’t shared by the Tory leadership-why he then decides to accept front bench positions in the first place if re-statements of the current Tory position offend him so I can’t understand.
What was Roger Helmer’s front bench job?
Hannan to be, ‘leader’ of Tory right.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23764643-tories-risk-castrating-uk-influence-in-europe.do
217 Wayne, that would appear to be a fairly good description of yourself there - any news yet on that BIG resignation from a month or so ago?
219 Either Cameron’s plans are cosmetic, or they are worthy of an outburst from a French minister. They can’t be both….
I doubt any MEP can become the leader of a particular wing of a mainstream UK political party. They just don’t have the national profile. Hannan, I dare say, is probably more known in the US than here. And I don’t think he’s all that known in the US.
“Kilroy? The Anti-wankers league will be demoing outside TVC this week. Could turn nasty.
by Jonathan November 5th, 2009 at 10:03 am”
*APPLAUSE*
207/211 - Since you insist, Tabbers, I’ll say that if they want a comedian, a pillock and a Lib Dem, they could have Lembit Opik and kill three birds with one stone.
[Pause for laughter]. Thanks. You’ve been a lovely audience. I’m here all week.
220.
You ignorant individual !
i kill three birds with one stone.
I think killing Sian and the Cheeky Girls is a bit much…..
221 - They can be both cosmetic and isolating, like waving a toy gun around at an airport.
I wonder now whether Hannan and Helmer will be off to form their own Euro grouping.
Where’s that Euro MEP who wants to shell Budapest?
Hannan was the feted darling of the Tory right. Is it even a year since he was carried aloft on Tory shoulders for his speech attacking the labour leader?
Are we now to believe that he is the foetid darling of the Tory right for attack another leader?
182. Mike is right on this. The EU (except for a very small subset of people) is not and never has been a driving force in people’s voting intentions. This was true when Tony Benn was leading labour’s charge out, and true when the Tories were imploding over the issue. (Currency, on the other hand is a live electoral issue for a significant number).
In a way, this is an endorsement of Cammo’s strategy - he’s selling the Eurosceptics down the river, but the great mass of the British public will neither know nor care. Those of us on left who are amused by the contortions of Tories claiming that Cameron has drawn a line in the sand, when he’s patently done the opposite, should remember that EU policy is an important policy problem for governments, but not much of an electoral issue.
Look at it this way, since Labour announced there would be no referndum on Lisbon, it has been popular, then unpopular, then very popular, then very unpopular, then mildy popular and then unpopular again. There’s no evidence that Europe has had anything to do with any of those changes.
224 Yeah, it was a bit rude, Wayne, but then tipsters who don’t deliver do tend to get it in the neck.
There used to be a whole family of false prophets on here, known as The Proper Family. Now only the old man, Herbert Snr, posts and he none too regularly. He also lays off the predictions now, confining his remarks to interesting if eccentric views on life, the universe and everything.
So there is a vacancy for False-Prophet-in-Chief in the PB establishment. You have a suitable CV. Why not send it to Mike?
195. “We’ve reactivated our market on whether Dan Hannan becomes a Westminster MP by 2014. He’s now only 3/1.”
I advise noone to take that bet.
Dan Hannan has no plans to become a Westminster MP - ever.
All you need to know about Dan Hannan is that he attended Oriel College. Nothing more needs to be said.
Could n’t the Tories have found anyone else other than Hannan and Helmer to appoint as frontbenchers? They might as well have borrowed someone from UKIP.
42. Q: Why are there so many tree-lined streets in France?
A: So the German army can march in the shade.
231. ‘there is a vacancy for False-Prophet-in-Chief ‘
Really? When did Roger resign that post?
230 Hopi Sen
Sorry, i must have blinked when Labour were “popular”. When was that then?
Lisbon has NEVER been popular, in my opinion. But then we’ll never know for sure, now Brown has broken his referendum promise.
230
Once again you join Mike in ignoring what I said and only repeating what you want to be true.
I have said for months that the EU issue will not derail Cameron this side of an election. People hate Labour too much for that and that includes the BOO faction. As a Labour supporter you should be proud that you have managed to so comprehensively unite the disperate strands of the right.
But once Brown is gone and Cameron is in power then you will start to see problems for Cameron if he cannot satisfy the overwhelming majority of his party who are Eurosceptics and the majority of teh country who feel betrayed by the Lisbon debacle and who want to see real action against the EU.
Cameron’s problem is that all he proposes is impractical. Once people see that then there will be trouble.
230. Further to which, it’s odd really. We’ve waited eagerly for a Clause 4 moment from Cameron, but when one that looks like it fits the bill finally does come along, Cameron, the conservatives generally and dozens on posters on here all furiously deny that it’s any such thing.
Strange.
232
I hope your predicitions are better than his.
From Rentoul’s blog.
Just two months ago, Daniel Hannan, Conservative Euro-MP, who was on Newsnight on Tuesday night saying that it didn’t matter what a referendum was about, just as long as there were one, wrote this:
I am increasingly confident that Britain will get its referendum. I’m not in a position to explain why at this stage, but our hand is stronger than is generally supposed. I know this won’t do for some of my readers, but I’m afraid that, for now, you’ll just have to take my word for it.
We’ll know what to do with his word in future.
Hmmm.
Having skimmed around the comments on articles in the Times/DT - there seems to be a concerted UKIP campaign underway.
Since they have no MPs and will probably still have no MPs after the GE, I do hope they get back in their pram soon.
239, disagree entirely. Labour’s longterm problem was that they were thought of as nice but incompetent, so they needed a policy shift. The Tories were seen as competent but nasty, so needed a PR shift.
The Tories never needed a clause 4 moment.
230 Hopi - You, and most commentators on the Left, are repeating the same old mistake yet again - underestimating both Cameron’s skill and his determination. Long may it continue (well, actually, until May 6th will do).
The French clearly understand that Cameron means business, and that he has the capacity to upset the traditional Franco-German hegemony. That is because they recognise that, for the first time in nearly a quarter of a century, Britain will have a government which intends to, and is capable of, standing up for British interests within the EU. No more rolling over and giving them everything they want, in return for nothing, as Blair did.
“When was that then?”
Between 1997 and 2002 I seem to recall.
238. Oh I totally agree with your latter point. I’ve no doubt that if there were a trory government, Dan Hannan would emerge as a sort of latter day Tony Benn (repeated references to the levellers, Magna Carta and all).
As I’ve said before, Tory moderate eurosceticism is now pretty much dead, Cameron’s just telling the members it’s only pining for the fjords.
In Government, that facade would slip pretty quickly, becuase, as you say, what Cameron’s saying now just won’t work, no matter how much peope on here tap their heels three times. When this becomes clear the Tories will have to chose between BOO and pragmatism. Some, like Hannan and Helmer have already made their choice. Others, like Montgomerie and Nelson are pretending they haven’t, but are going to accept the Cameron position.
But none ofthis will have the slightest impact on the next GE. Perhaps it should, but it won’t.
212 Sarkozy really is a horrible piece of work, and objectively anti-capitalist, to boot. He’s no natural ally for Britain’s Conservatives.
On topic, the swings from Crewe and Norwich North suggest that the Conservatives could run Labour quite close in a by-election in this seat, and I expect it would be fertile territory for both UKIP and the BNP.
242 No-one ever thought the Tories were competent.
243 I salute your blind unquestioning loyalty to Cameron. Quite touching.
If more Labour MPs had had the sense to say to Brown what Hannan did, only sooner, you wouldn’t be 15 points behind right now.
That French Euro minister really has lost it hasn’t he! I don’t think I’ve heard someone get so exercised since Mr Prentice tore up the Sun on the conf platform
Clearly they are both discombobulated
An amusing snippet from the FT titled “Blair’s Haiku”:
Voices quell, Anger dims A soothing snow falls on hills
I was an envoy once, you know
Leaves turn brown and die A party turns Brown and dies
Death’s colour is brown
Old pond Full of money
I leap in
European summit
The smart dwarf can best the giant
But he can’t stop traffic in Beijing
robert.shrimsley@ft.com
243
So errr you wouldn’t share nasty ‘ol lefty Melanie Phillips view then.
It is hard to think of a more craven, pathetic spectacle than David Cameron’s performance yesterday. Faced with the greatest single test of his statesmanship, he flunked it and ran up the white flag instead. He put his own political interests in keeping his party together above those of the nation.
“Tory moderate eurosceticism is now pretty much dead”
You don’t seem able to tell the difference between moderate Euroscepticism and advocacy for complete withdrawal, pace your comment yesterday that all is left is pragmatism and withdrawal.
152 - Did everyone else get a reply from No 10 yesterday re the Petition Gordon Must Go? I did but I have been too disinterested to go to the weblink to read it.
by Easterross November 5th, 2009 at 9:01 am
I looked at mine, don’t know if it’s any different from everyone elses but it said
” after taking due consideration of the feeling and support this petition has attracted it is the intention of the Prime Minister to immediately resign and call a general election”
Concise and to the point
243. Indeed, if Cameron does win back control of significant areas of policy this will be sea-change both in Britain’s relationship with the EU and in the way the EU works more generally.
Once some areas have come back under UK control, the pressure for more repatriation still will grow. And other countries, too, might be interested in a more a la carte menu…
Interesting how it’s only the British Europhiles (Hopi Sen/Edmund in Tokoyo) and Labour sympathesisers (Coldstone, Jonathan, tim, wage slave) who are talking about “Camerons betrayal” and “Selling us down the river”.
On the other hand - continental Europhiles are saying this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/04/france-autistic-tories-castrated-uk
Forgive me if I’m a little sceptical about your pronouncements on the issue but if the French - and Germans - are mightily pissed off about Cameron’s plans then that gives me great confidence.
Yes; personally, I wish Cameron had gone slightly further but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt - let a Conservative negotiating team have a free hand to conduct negotiations over the full-life of the next parliament and only pass judgement at the end of that term.
I expect that I will be pleased and you will be gravely disappointed.
246 - I don’t agree South Shields would be close. The Norwich swing wouldn’t take the Tories that close and they would also suffer from the Lib Dems starting from narrowly second place which would give them some traction. Wouldn’t waste a penny on anything but a Labour win.
236 No, no, Runnymede - that’s Site Anti-tipster, a different thing altogether. His job is to say say ‘No’ when somebody suggests a good value tip, allowing all PBers to lump on fearlessly.
The False Prophet merely has to say ‘Miliband is about to challenge Brown’ or ‘A resignation is imminent’ when nothing of the sort is actually going to happen. This causes mayhem in the market, allowing prudent PBers to clean up on the wild prices.
The two positions may appear similar but require totally different skills.
Good morning campers from Paris.
Been watching the news here in France, and a chap from Le Figaro, has accused David Cameron of ignoring the settled will of the British People when it comes to Europe.
I nearly became a rock and roll legend and was about to throw the tv out of my hotel room sadly it’s fixed to the wall.
So if Miliband becomes Europe’s Foreign Affairs Grand Fromage, that means ACL Blair wont become President?
Wage Slave, you do realise, one of the first acts of the Cameron government, will make it a crime to misspell Cameron’s name.
Punishment, will be, you are forced to spend the rest of your natural life as SeanT’s catamite.
Toodlepip folks, I’m off to EuroDisney.
254
Then again there’s Barry Legg I mean he’s so left he’s errr well right.
http://www.brugesgroup.com/mediacentre/releases.live?article=14065
230 Labour enjoyed brief popularity in the Summer of 2007, but it’s been downhill all the way since then, bar the occasional dead cat bounce. 2008 saw the worst local electoral performance of any government since the War, and 2009 saw an even worse one.
Lisbon as such hasn’t harmed Labour, but lying about it has certainly reinforced the general impression that this is a rotten government, and reinforced the public determination to vote it out.
The Conservatives’ problem is that the government has left them a load of messes to clear up, and the EU is only one of them.
Good morning campers from Paris.
Been watching the news here in France, and a chap from Le Figaro, has accused David Cameron of ignoring the settled will of the British People when it comes to Europe.
I nearly became a rock and roll legend and was about to throw the tv out of my hotel room sadly it’s fixed to the wall.
So if Miliband becomes Europe’s Foreign Affairs Grand Fromage, that means ACL Blair wont become President?
Wage Slave, you do realise, one of the first acts of the Cameron government, will make it a crime to misspell Cameron’s name.
Punishment, will be, you are forced to spend the rest of your natural life as SeanT’s catamite.
Toodlepip folks, I’m off to Eur0D1sney.
231,
Yes it was rude… especially as I have apologised on a number of occassions for what I was told and it didn’t happen…. move on get over it !
243. Richard N - Snap!
248. People think we’re much more competent than Labour.
243. Yes, right, The problem with every single British government, from Heath, through Wilson, Thatcher, Major and Blair is that they had absolutely no interest in Standing Up For Britain ™.
That’s why we ended up joining the EU, having a referendum on it, signing SEA, signing Maastrcht, signing Lisbon and so on. All there terrible reverses were because, until Cameron, there was no one willing to fight for Britain. There was no benefit for Britain in any of these things.
Look, you can believe that cameron is going to fight the good fight if you want to, but just pay attention to what he actually said. A referendum lock for new treaties, which is meaningless as there won’t be any for a decade or more, a sovriegnty bill that just means the government of the day has to put Lisbon changes through a parliament they have a majority in, and a call to opt out of Justice (already got), immigration (got) and social chapter (the only popular bit of europe) in five years time.
In the end he’ll get some minor concessions on Employment rights and a confirmation of the exsting opt outs, and then he’ll declare victory and try to move on. At which point the BOO boys will either buckle under or rebel.
247 It’s not loyalty, Jonathan, but admiration of the fact that he has hardly put a foot wrong since he first emerged as a candidate for Tory leader.
238: Most of what the arch-eurosceptics want is impractical however, if not all of it.
The only thing they would be happy with is BOO. Which, although I resist further integration into europe and would wish to see the entire thing reformed, I would campaign against. Although people like to mutter about europe and its evils, I think, faced with a in/out choice, would pick in.
This has also been accepted in the UK more recently in the Metric Martyrs case where the appeal court ruled that as long as the 1972 EC act was in force, EU law did have supremecy over UK law.
The court decided that the EU law was a ‘constitutional law’ on a par with the 1689 Bill of rights and therefore was not subject to the process known as ‘implied repeal’.
by Richard Tyndall November 5th, 2009 at 9:01 am
You have made Cameron’s case for the Sovereignty act there and shown why it will work and be enforceable.
254 - I’m not accusing him of selling anyone down the river.
The idiots like Hannan who have claimed Inside Tracks on Klaus and Referenda (see the ludicrous quote at 240) have thrown themselves under the bus, while Cameron shoves the whole thing into the long grass and tangles Hague up in a European Tour of such pointlessness he may as well do it in Lenins old train in a coffin.
Its sound politics by Dave.
I’m surprised the Tories on here are so quiet on the Turkey accession though.
264: Hold on a sec Hopi….when did we have a referendum on the EU. EEC maybe, but even that was way before I was even born.
263 Not that that’s saying much.
Labour and the KGB:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5506913/labour-and-the-kgb.thtml
268. I am FOR the Turkey accession tim - is that the right answer ?
256 ‘…and Labour sympathesisers (Coldstone, Jonathan, tim, wage slave) who are talking about “Camerons betrayal” and “Selling us down the river”.’
Interesting how none of them see fit to pass comment on Browns own betrayal of the UK, and his subsequent sell out. Hmmm.
“It is hard to think of a more craven, pathetic spectacle than David Cameron’s performance yesterday.”
I don’t know -promising a referendum then claiming one isn’t needed because the comment is now labeled a “Treaty” and not a “constitution”, and deciding to hnad back most of our rebate for nothing in return seems pretty cowardly, craven and parthetic.
256: Casino, I’ve not noticed left-of-centre posters here talking about selling Britain down the river etc. We are just saying the stuff about repatriating powers is empty posturing (which is why Cameron has said well, it’ll take a whole Parliament, and then we’ll, er, see). Since it would require unanimous consent from the other members, the French and (less reported) German reactions saying hell would freeze over first are relevant.
258. Peter thank you for putting me straight on that
.
271. Can Kinnochio be tried for treason ?
272 - It is for me.
Good for you.
265 Well top tip, sometimes you appear amazingly sycophantic.
As for putting a foot wrong…
Three-quarters of Cam’s success is not of his own making.
And the jury’s out on this EU policy. It’s only possible because the Tories just want power and will swallow absolutely anything to get it.
What some fail to remember is that Hannan and Tyndall have just been elected for another five years as MEP’s, on nice big fat salaries. Therefore they can pretty much say what they like and get away with it ! If they are that bothered by what has happened then maybe they should resign as MEP’s and loose their £100k plus per annum salaries … yeh lets see them … I think not !
These two especially Hannan probably couldn’t give a hoot if the Tories lost the election and there was a LibLab pact, in fact it would probably suit/strengthen them…. oh the thought of power -how it always seems to overcome one’s loyalty !
273. Please to be noting - Cameron is selling Eurosceptics down the river, not me, you, the country or the British interest. The BOO boys know it, hence Hannan and Helmers resignations.
261 Yeah, nobody should get too strung up about it, but there is a serious point here amidst the banter.
This is a betting Site. Punters put down real money. They tend to get a bit tetchy with people who may have led them astray.
You are particularly vulnerable because you do not bet. When I lead others astray with my dodgy tips, the punters here do at least know I have lost money too because I always back my own tips. That does allow me a little more latitude, though not too much.
Perhaps you could bear that in mind when making further ‘announcements’.
257 A Norwich North-type result would see Labour’s lead fall from 43% to 11%. So, a probable Labour hold, but an upset wouldn’t be out of the question.
“Labour and the KGB:”
That’s absolutely treasonous. Christ, it’s like dealing with the Gestapo. Disgusting.
281 - I see you are still gloating, as if you didn’t make enough of a d##k of yourself yesterday. The only selling down the river going on was the dishonest lying corrupt Labour government.
270
Statement from Heath, to the HofC 10th June 1971.
‘We have said that as Members of the enlarged Community we would play our full part in the progress towards economic and monetary union’.
So the fact that it was the intention for the EEC to morph into the EU was known even then. Of course Tories in the main,(a few diehards didn’t) supported it, the Labour left opposed, but they were decried and attacked.
280 I’m not sure that I follow any of that. Who’s Tyndall?
271 ‘Chernyaev records how he promised Neil Kinnock “everything they wanted from us to beat Thatcher and get to power”.’
Blimey.
250. “He put his own political interests in keeping his party together above those of the nation.”
There’s no point in the Tory party splitting and losing the election. In the past they would have gone radio rental and blown their chances of victory. Now they are clearly more united and realise that however much they hate the Lisbon Treaty they can’t do a damn thing about it until Labour is turfed out.
Labour’s last chance went up in smoke yesterday.
278. Can’t see Sarko or Merky agreeing to it though..
260
TSE
Ah, Paris.
Are the camera shops still there along the Boulevard Beaumarchais?
I saw a beautiful Contax IIIa in one of the stores there. Loads of interesting stuff, but can be a bit pricey.
One of the best things I saw was a Large Format Tailboard Camera, but it was being used for window dressing.
Oh well…
280 - What some fail to remember is that Hannan and Tyndall have just been elected for another five years as MEP’s, on nice big fat salaries.
Now that would be a News story.
Proper Nazi in Tory group.
246. As I’ve said before, Tory moderate eurosceticism is now pretty much dead, Cameron’s just telling the members it’s only pining for the fjords.
by Hopi Sen November 5th, 2009 at 10:40 am
I disagree with Hopi Sen in that I think and indeed know from my own experience of meeting and talking to people, at last in Southern England, that there is an underlying hostility to the EU from much of our population.
From this I reckon that UKIP can only gain in any GE, and may even put a Tory majority in jeapardy. That is why I have now and for the last 2 weeks put a possible Tory majority of between 30-45 seats instead of the 66-88 seats I originally estimated.
271 ‘Chernyaev records how he promised Neil Kinnock “everything they wanted from us to beat Thatcher and get to power”. ‘
And a few years later Delors was offering similar help.
Labour - the party of foreign interests.
BREAKING NEWS:
Former MEP Tom Wise faces jail after he admitted £36,000 expenses scam
285. Oooh, I’m a d**k too now, not just a t**t. I presume therefore I’m some sort of unpleasant hermaphrodite.
Do you always resort to censored insults when you lack a viable argument? Tip: It isn’t effective.
Alan Duncan escapes the Rope.
DEVELOPING…
Alan Duncan cleared by Standards Commissioner
295. I guess UKIP wont be paying his legal bills..
“Proper Nazi in Tory group.”
Given, Tim, that it’s being revealed that Labour dealt with the Communists and the KGB, I really wouldn’t start throwing stones about imaginary Nazis. Your party actually dealt with a proper totalitarian genocidal regime for, apparently, electoral advantage. This isn’t some group commemorating a nasty bunch of people, this is actually a nasty bunch of people.
Breaking News: Alan Duncan cleared by Standards Commisioner
http://page.politicshome.com/uk/alan_duncan_cleared_by_standards_commissioner.html
274
The point is in one of his speeches, Blair specifically said that there would be a referendum, even if the Constitution came back with a few cosmetic changes and a new name.
264 Hopi - Clearly Cameron will have to start from the disastrous situation left to him by Labour. Much as I’m accused by Jonathan of blind hero-worship of Cameron, I do recognise that he cannot achieve miracles. Of course his hand would be much stronger if the Blair/Brown government hadn’t been so craven and conceded so much for nothing in return, but facts are facts. They did it, and we have to start with that major handicap. More’s the pity.
So, yes, the concessions which it is now practical to achieve are smaller than I would like. But they are still very worthwhile; perhaps we will even be able to avoid the looming disaster of the City being severely damaged by lumpen EU regulation designed to help Frankfurt - a vital British interest if ever there was one.
But it’s not going to be easy to achieve any of this, and, as Cameron rightly pointed out yesterday, it is likely to take a full term to see significant improvements.
296 - You hardly post on PB these days, then you turn up yesterday and spend two days gloating about victory and Tories losing / selling us down the river. If you can’t see what a right Nixon you look, you are a bit thick.
301. Lol - Blair lies shock..
304
Blair was smart.
He let Brown lie for him…
267
“You have made Cameron’s case for the Sovereignty act there and shown why it will work and be enforceable.”
Much as I would love to see something like that as a first step, you miss the point. It can’t happen. As long as we remain signitories to the 1972 accession treaty and the subsequent treaties we cannot have a law which says that UK law takes precedence over EU law. To do so would be in violation of our treaty obligations, of EU law and as it stands of UK law.
And since the final arbiters of this are the ECJ it is clear that when it came to a legal challenge Cameron would lose.
As long as you wish to adhere to the treaty obligations that we are signed up to Cameron cannot have his soveriegnty law.
And I need to learn to spell sovereignty.
292.
STONE.. CRAWL UNDER… PONDLIFE
293: I wouldn’t overestimate UKIP. they have no effective leader, no money, and no real message at the westminster elections over than ‘give the EU a kicking’.
In any given consituatancy they’ll only get a few thousand votes the vast majority being in safe Tory seats. In any marginal will people really vote UKIP over a chance to get labour out? Only the die-hards.
299. You forget that ommunism is an ‘idealistic’ creed, as the various ex-trot Labour MPs keep telling us. The millions murdered by the party they formerly supported died in a noble cause.
280
Er I wasn’t elected. And wouldn’t stand in the first place
I think you mean Helmer…?
306, it seems complicated. Be awful if the consequences were to throw a media spotlight on the issue and raise awareness of how shitty the EU is.
Milipede as Foreign Minister for the EU would be a bloody good thing.
As positive as yesterday afternoon and the immediate aftermath seemed, I do wonder how well the Tories will come out of this. It seems so unjust that Labour are teflon-coated on this despite being the ones in power who denied us the right to a vote that they solemnly promised - whereas the Tories were powerless, made a promise which they have stuck to throughout, and now are being portrayed by the media (not just the Beeb) as the ones making a u-turn, who have sold us all down the river, and who are not to be trusted. And now all the Euro nutters (the Brit ultra-sceptics and the Euro feds abroad) are putting the boot into Cameron and Hague.
And we haven’t started yet on the legal analysis which no doubt will show Cameron’s new promises will achieve virtually nothing anyway.
I fear the Tory running sore is no closer to being healed than it ever was.
“In October 1981 [Foot] led a big delegation to Moscow, to discuss Britain’s unilateral disarmament. Chernyaev notes ‘the Labour party’s metamorphosis: pragmatism, cynicism, frankness…’
‘Dear Comrade Brezhnev’, Foot said while shaking Brezhnev’s hand with both of his hands —”
From the Spectator article. Absolutely disgusting.
313, there are few things more helpful to a British foreign policy’s popularity than annoying the French.
“It seems so unjust that Labour are teflon-coated on this despite being the ones in power who denied us the right to a vote that they solemnly promised ”
Labour are the ones who are 13-17% behind.
310
I do like the sound of ‘Ommunism’. Sounds sort of Sordid Buddhism.
314. Anthing more on Kinnock ?
Not a big fan of UKIP myself as it has often seemed like too much of a vehicle for one or two big egos. But it is worth noting that as soon as the party found out about Wise he was immediately thrown out. Rather puts Labour to shame.
316, aye, but the media’s given them far too easy a ride on this.
316: we’ll see what the next polls say - I think the Tories will take a hit from this and UKIP a boost
318:
All this repeated itself three years later, after Foot was succeeded by Neil Kinnock, and Brezhnev by the completely senile Konstantin Chernenko. Kinnock came to Moscow accompanied by, among others, the young Charles Clarke and Patricia Hewitt. Here is Chernyaev’s account, dated 1 December 1984:
Chernenko just read his brief and listened indifferently to Kinnock’s oratorical response. But then, in spite of all my preliminary work, Kinnock began to harass him with probing questions. The smell of confusion spread in the air. […] The Englishmen realised that they had crossed the line and began to retreat. For they had already received the most important promises they needed for politics at home, against Thatcher.
Chernyaev records how Charles Clarke, then Kinnock’s chief of staff, wanted to mention human rights in the communiqué. However, the Soviets said it was ‘awkward’ to ‘extort human rights’ on the top of such generous disarmament promises.
In fact a year later the party would seek Soviet advice once more, when Neil Kinnock sent his shadow minister for overseas development to the Kremlin. Chernyaev records: ‘We have discussed everything with him. I took it upon myself to promise him (in “preliminary order”, of course) everything they wanted from us, to beat Thatcher and get to power.’
281 - Hopi - I’m a BOO Eurosceptic, but I think Cammo’s taking the only plausible position. We lost. The treaty was signed. We didn’t lose because the Tories reneged on the promise of a referendum; we lost because Labour reneged on the promise of a referendum. And a retrospective referendum when the Tories get in next Spring will not reverse that.
I’m pretty despondent that we lost, but it’s only one battle, and now we must wait for the next one - which is what Cammo is doing. Of course I’d like Britain to leave the EU altogether, but I don’t think the country as a whole quite agrees with me yet (although it might be closer than some think); it’s on the cards right now and I see no point agitating for it.
Of course, if an in-or-out referndum does come along I will welcome it and happily vote out.
320 Are you on board Cameron’s pragmatic eurobus MD?
Labour - selling the UK out to totalitarian regimes for power.
The discussion up thread on primacy of ECJ over domestic courts and Law highlights the importance of the opt-out from the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The ECJ remit is limited to the application of Community/Union law as laid down in treaties & directives flowing from them. Cases have mainly been around commercial obligations, countries not implementing judgements or directives. The ECJ can impose fines to enforce judgements.
Human Rights has been dealt with by the ECHR who do not have an enforcement process (so despite the ECHR judgement on prisoners voting rights the Government has done little to come into line).
Under the Charter though the ECJ would be able to direct Governments, with possible sanctions, on areas previously outside its remit, overlapping with the ECHR and with domestic law. Tony Blair’s opt out isn’t worth that much and Cameron’s Sovereignty Bill would still require a harder opt out to be certain the ECJ didn’t use the Charter in reaching its verdicts as regards UK issues.
Difficult as the ECJ is charged with ensuring that EU Law is applied in same way across the 28 countries.
314 - I wonder if anyone went as far as Thatcher in urging the Soviets to use military force to maintain the Berlin Wall?
322.
Should be front page tomorrow 
275. “We are just saying the stuff about repatriating powers is empty posturing”
Well, frankly; you would, wouldn’t you?
Cameron is your political enemy. The last thing you’d want is for us to unite behind him and knuckle down. You want a split. You *CRAVE* a split - this is why you are trying to encourage one.
There are plenty of opportunities for Cameron to renegotiate opt-outs over the coming years. There will be accession treaties, budget negotiations, power politics.. We still have several major opt-outs in EMU, Schengen and some woolly one over Justice and the CFR.
Most of us don’t want BOO - yet - but we do want reform. And we believe Cameron *will* deliver some.
Some of these posts resemble the rubbish posted in 2006 when Cameron delayed pulling out of the EPP till 2009; “it’ll never happen” etc.
It did.
Forgive me: I will listen to no lectures by Europhiles on this issue.
295
Ah! how different to the dear ‘ol Tories.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1494764/Britain-would-be-happy-to-scrap-the-pound-Heath-told-French.html
324, could you be a little clearer?
313 I think you may be right - however with a few months to go - I hope that Labour get side-tracked by this, just like with toffs and Nazis.
It’s time for a change and Labour have nothing to offer, all they do is make stuff up. It was inevitable that the EU story would attract all the old cliches from lazy journalists who *want* a Tory bad news angle.
I’m pretty sure Coulson is getting the baggage out of the way now, so that Tory *good* news stories get more attention nearer the GE. I’m bored stiff with the EU and have stopped listening.
327: A claim based on a dodgy ’scoop’ by a jorno getting access to soviet records ’supposedly’
327 Evidence?
322 - Is that it?
Looks like Fraser Nelson hyping a story again.
Hopi Sen you really are new Labour through and through.
Look, you say, we were pusillanimous and didn’t try to change things so no-one else can do it, it is impossible.
Well it is not impossible by any means. This weak kneed approach has dogged British ministers for a couple of decades. But for the French and Germans who know what they want and show determination it works fine.
But whenever we got anything like a robust position the press howled about not ‘being at the heart of Europe’, not making friends in Brussels, and so on and so on. Of course later we got Blair who worked for himself and not us, and Brown who couldn’t count.
To succeed in Europe you do not need friends you need other countries with the same national aim in the area under consideration. Then you horse trade, and horse trading is a vicious and nasty game carried out by people in very smart suits - male and female - with knives up their sleeves and cudgels behind their backs, and only the most determined and strong win through.
Klaus was determined but from a small country, however he was prepared to play the game hard. Result, change of the Lisbon treaty through the next accession treaty.
So cheer up. It can be done. It won’t be perfect as this is an imperfect world but it will be done.
The first step is the Sovereignty Act and that is easy peasy. The repatriation of powers will take longer but as all treaties will need referendums once the act is passed then whence the accession treaties? Another opt out in each one? That is how the French would play it, long, consistent and merciless.
302. To quote Chris Grayling’s favourite TV show - “You want it to be one way. But it’s the other way”.
The only things Cameron is going to secure are thing that won’t upset the applecart. That’s what he’s set as his bar for success. The rest, French ministers nad William hague both, is just sound and fury.
331 Are you four-square behind Cameron’s acceptance of Lisbon, his position that EU is permanent and his new pragmatic policy of positive engagement?
In short, are you on Dave’s eurobus?
335, Mr. tim, I do declare that if hypocrisy were onions you’d be crying your eyes out.
330 Coldstone, surely old would be ol’ not ‘ol?
313. Bob you really are the most fainthearted Tory I have ever come across.
338, cheers. I entirely agree with Cameron’s acceptance of reality.
Positive engagement? I back his desire for repatriation of powers, the Sovereignty Bill and the 1972 amendment.
If positive engagement has upset some silly surrender monkey minister, we should have more.
30% tax on croissants!
326
You’ll be telling me next that a Minister in the Labour government was sha**ing the mistress of a KGB officer, afterall no Tory would do that, and as we all know from Lord Dennings whitew….sorry report,even if one did, nothing wrong with that.
314. Are you really surprised?
327.
330: You shouldn’t generalise about Tories - they continue to vary on the issue. My Conservative opponent has said she’d be willing to back Britain joining the Euro if business wanted it.
314. Ah the boot was on the other foot back then…
327. Citation needed.
“Is that it?”
Meeting with the head of a totalitarian regime, one to which we were opposed in Cold War, and asking for anything to help gain power? Is that it? Is that it?!
“On the whole, however, the communist infiltration of the T&G is hardly a joking matter: its influence in the Labour party was substantial. The decision to give Gordon Brown his first and only safe seat, Dunfermline East, was made by two T&G officials: Hugh Wyper, the regional boss and a Communist Party member, and Alec Kitson. This is not exceptional. Neil Kinnock, Tony Blair, Margaret Beckett, Harriet Harman, John Reid — to name just a few — were all T&G people who made their Labour party careers thanks to the union’s backing. And at that time, of course, T&G political backing was within the gift of Alec Kitson.”
So will Brown, Harman Kinnock, and others be wanting to put the record straight?
337 Well, Hopi, if you are right then it is bad news for Labour tactically. Because the attack line ‘Cameron’s OK, but he’s in thrall to all those nasty anti-European nutters’ has just gone down the pan.
Bagehot on Cameron and Europe:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2009/11/the_morning_after.cfm
326
Correct as far as it goes. The problem is that the ECJ has taken it upon itself to radically increase the scope of its jurisdiction and EU competancy by claiming that many areas previously outside its remit are covered by the laws on Single Market and Social Chapter.
Now although Cameron says he will try and pull out of the social chapter I am sure he is not planning on pulling out of the single market since that would negate his main reasoning for being in the EU in the first place.
As a result he will still have to contend with the ultimate authority - the ECJ - making decisions on what is and is not covered by its competancy. Guided of course by the principles of ‘ever closer union’.
342 MD backs Dave on Lisbon acceptance shocker. If Dave can win over the libertarian right to the EU I am more impressed with him than ever.
Maybe renaming croissants as Waterloo biscuits was enough to ease your conscience.
“Hugh Wyper”
Surely that’s a comedy name??!!
Good to see that Hopi Sen, having been largely absent from PB for months, spends his first two days back posting properly living up to his nickname.
353, I’m libertarian right?
I tend to avoid pigeon-holing myself. [Insert naughty joke here].
If it’s become law it’s become law. He never promised a post-ratification referendum.
Do you back Brown breaking his manifesto promise?
@342: I like croissants! Could we just call them “butter moons” or something and forget the tax?
O/T did anyone hear dear old Norm putting the case for electoral reform on Today this morning? I paraphrase:
“If Cameron is elected with 40% of people who vote, and turnout is 60%, he will have been endorsed by less than a quarter of the British people.”
Aren’t we getting to the point where it’s getting too close to the General Election to bother with by-elections? It’s only 6 months away.
357 - Pastry Arcs (de Triomphe)?
350
While you’re at it, ask ‘em about the Zinoviev Letter.
343 Coldstone, out of interest were you a Communist, and/or did you support them in any way?
357, no Matthew, or should I say ‘Matthieu’? Croissants are decadent Frenchist creations, made with red wine, cheese and the irresistible urge to surrender to men called Helmut.
Baguettes to be banned! Petit pois to be fired into Paris from giant artillery guns on the south coast!
Why tax croissants?
Are they especially flown in, fresh every morning, along with ‘French Sticks’?
Spectator trying to smear the Labour party to get Dave out of a hole shocker.
In case you haven’t seen this
http://order-order.com/2009/11/05/power-before-principle/
341: I’m not “a Tory”
I do generally vote for them and want to see them win power though.
Thusfar..
365. If there is no truth in the story, can we expect Kinnock, Foot, Harman and Brown to sue them for damages?
364, because it’s vital we have a cultural war to defeat this Frenchist notion of surrendering to Europe.
365, depends whether the assertions are true or not.
You can hardly complain after the likes of McBride.
245: David
Read it again
he said “since it was announced there would be no Lisbon referendum”
365. The Economist isn’t too flattering about the whoop of cowards that are the Labour Party either Jonathan:
“..considering the squeeze he was in, the package Mr Cameron came up with was moderate and sensible. And his position on the Lisbon treaty ends up looking much more respectable than Labour’s, who flagrantly broke their promise of a referendum—a dreadful deceit, whatever you think of Europe, the treaty and the need for a referendum in the first place. “
362 And while you are about it, EdP, check out whether he has ever been involved in any Unamerican activities.
Nah, it’s just smear tactics. A suspiciously helpful diversion.
Spectator = blue rag.
365. And The Labour Party don’t need to be smeared Jonathan - by their own actions they smear themselves.
They don’t need any help from us.
369
Ah. A cultural struggle.
First, we kill all the fifth columnists…
374. Indeed Labour have been on something of a ‘dirty protest’ over the last year or so.
373. Jonathan.
This is a bit rich coming from a supporter of a party that has spent most of the last year banging on about the Tories’ Latvian and Polish partners.
And since the final arbiters of this are the ECJ it is clear that when it came to a legal challenge Cameron would lose.
by Richard Tyndall November 5th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I think you must be in a different legal entity than I am. I am in a place where sovereignty lies in the Queen in Parliament and no treaty or arrangement with other sovereign entities can be created or enforced without the sanction of that Sovereign body. The European Court can huff and puff but cannot change that.
If the sovereign body in the UK allows the ECJ to be indicative of legal precedence then it will happen, that is the current case.
If an act of parliament changes that, then that will be the new position under UK law and courts will have to make decisions in that light. The ECJ can then rail and condemn and demand fines, but if the UK law says no, then no it is.
This is a fundamental of our constitution. We fought civil wars and insurrections, deposed Kings and invited in others to ensure this was the case.
I suspect you know that but as you want out of the EU any facts which appear to be inconvenient to that aim are rejected.
372 PtP, I wouldn’t go that far! It seems like a fair question to ask him.
375, exactly. And for that all we need is a giant artillery gun, some trebuchets, a small fleet of Death Stars and a shoal of enormo-haddock.
re 321 but Bob according to Smithson’s 2nd law then the Tories will get a boost because Cameron has been on the TV lots.
371-Didn’t Blair give the pledge in the run up to the 2004 Euros? In the event Labour lost badly, but how much worse would it have really been had he not given the pledge? Who remembered the result 3 weeks later?
He seems to have form, as the Euro referendum pledge showed. Did he really need to give it? He would have won in 1997 anyway. Or was it to keep the Great Clunking Fist on board? Had the Euro then gone and be renamed the NuEuro would Labour have said it was totally different and so no need for referendums?
“t’s just smear tactics”
coughkaminskilatviansscough
363
Would have been difficult, as I was once a member of the Armed Forces and my wife worked in a ‘very’ sensitive area in the MOD for a time, I was postively vetted.
I despise all totalitariansm left or right. Having said that, it always seems to me rather strange that Tories are quick to smear anyone on the left, (with very scanty evidence) of communist sympathies, whilst sketching over the fact that the biggest security affair,(Profumo) during the cold war involved a Tory Minister of War.
During the referendum campaign 1975, I rang LBC the George Gale show I supported withdrawal from the EEC, I was told by Dr. Rhodes Boyson Tory MP, the reason I did so was because I wanted to hand the country over to, ‘Soviet Russia’ What Gale must have thought, (he was conducting the phonein) and a prominent anti-EEC campaigner I dread to think.
So there you go, I was smeared by a prominent Right Wing Tory MP because I wanted this country out of the EEC. Are there no depths to which you Tories won’t sink?
Maybe Peter Mandelson could get the law change on life peers through and he could be the candidate - or am I running ahead of myself?
lol - had to laugh at this line.
366 Odd really. He correctly notes the prevalance of pragmatism, but then interprets it as being against the national interests for the first time on this occassion.
347. Tim is a serial liar, so as one might expect, his account of Thatcher’s views is based on a knowing misrepresentation of recent revelations from Soviet sources.
These show that Thatcher wanted Germany to remain two countries, an east and a west, rather than becoming one.
Tim wanted to interpret this as a sensational hitherto-unrevealed shocka meaning Thatcher wanted East Germany to remain communist.
In fact, what she wanted was for Honecker to keep East Germany functioning long enough to transition into a separate democracy alongside West Germany. The alternative, reunification, would in her view have resulted in an excessively powerful country, against UK interests.
The wind was rather taken out of tim’s sails when it was pointed out to him that his story wasn’t news. She gives a full account of the meeting in question in her memoirs. This includes all the bits he left out, in order to mislead.
Tim is a bit like a creationist, in that he asserts rubbish, it gets debunked, and then he goes back to it and repeats the original rubbish. He does this in hopes that people will eventually get bored of rebutting it and he’ll then be able to repeat it unchallenged.
Labour used to be good at lying. Wonder what happened?
The people speak (read the comments!):
http://blog.conservatives.com/index.php/2009/11/04/a-policy-on-europe-that-people-can-believe-in/#comments
380. “and a shoal of enormo-haddock.”
We can’t do that because of the EU Common Fisheries Policy: no fish left.
@363: Surely I don’t have to give up good red wine, too? What about watching “Passport to Pimlico”?
Still, if I must, I must!
378. Witan.
What you need to remember is that Richard T desperately wants the UK out of the EU.
This is why he keeps banging on about the UK placing itself in breach of its treaty obligations, implying that to do so would force the EU to kick the UK out.
Which just ain’t going to happen.
382 Coldstone, thank you for giving an answer. The Profumo affair is well documented - there ’s not much of a ‘Tory cover up’ there. Is there any proof that he inadvertantly or deliberately handed over information and compromised national security?
378
Sorry Witan but again, whilst I wish it were the case the courts and treaty law say otherwise.
Look, it works this way. Yes Parliament is sovereign and yes, no Parliament can bind its successors. But as long as Parliament by its own free will decides to keep the 1972 ECA on the statute books then it has to abide by the laws set out in that act. It cannot arbitrarily decide to ignore some parts of the law and not others.
That act says that we are signatories of a formal treaty and that treaty says that we accept the principle of ‘acquis communautaire’. This is the principle that as long as we are members of the EU then we have to adopt the whole body of EU law as set out in the treaties and we have to give it precedence over UK law.
Our treaty obligations are constrained by the Vienna Convention on treaties which says thhat we cannot withdraw from any one part of them unilateraly. We either accept the treaty as a whole as signed or we do not accept it at all.
So yes Parliament is sovereign but just as that doesn’t give it the right to arbitrarily have people arrested or killed, it also doesn’t give it the right to ignore its own laws on its own statute books.
If it wants to assert that sovereignty in the area of competances then it either has to get a new treaty agreed which supercedes all the previous treaties or it has to revoke the 1972 ECA and withdraw the UK from the EU.
Thats the law.
384 - It does make you wonder how sane and sober Thatcher was towards the end.
When even Douglas Hurd is made to look sound then there’s a problem captain.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8251211.stm
And I can’t think of a western politician that went to such an effort to protect the Warsaw Pact.
Not intentionally anyway.
http://www.atlantic-times.com/archive_detail.php?recordID=1934
378, 388
Underlying this are a series of treaties/laws which are designed to be vague enough to be interpreted as people (which usually means the people who control the people who control the purse strings) wish.
And this interfaces badly with an unwritten constitution where sovereignty is a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ matter
379 Sorry Ed, I thought maybe you were preparing a ‘blacklist’ for Mike, so he could ban communist sympathisers, Party members (past or current) and anybody guilty of unamerican activities.
382. fantasist on the loose…
358. “If Cameron is elected with 40% of people who vote, and turnout is 60%, he will have been endorsed by less than a quarter of the British people.”
IIRC Labour did worse than that in 2005.
391 TIMBO-BINGO is back.
388
Londonstatto.
I suggest you actually point out what is incorrect in law in what I have just written rather than your snide comments.
391 So, in fact, there’s no evidence that she wanted the Soviets to “use military force to maintain the Berlin Wall.”
Under the Tories we will see a return to ‘private splendour,public squalor’.
The UK will become a pariah state in civilised Europe and our ‘Special Relationship’ with the USA will be anything but special.
With any luck, William Hague will be shunted down to only fifth place on the Clinton xmas card list.
For some strange reason I will be voting for these misfits.
[395] - Indeed! A miserly 2 out of every 9 voters on the electoral roll saw fit to give their vote to Labour.
389 - There’s rarely firm proof of anything in espionage, almost by definition. Peter Wright in Spycatcher certainly raised very strong suspicions that there was more than a mere attempt to obtain information but who knows.
401 I’d suggest that Profumo paid a fairly high and just price for his folly. There are many others, possibly even in government who have been fortunate to escape censure for their treachery.
398. lol Sean! Love the droll way you put it!
382. “I despise all totalitariansm left or right. Having said that, it always seems to me rather strange that Tories are quick to smear anyone on the left, (with very scanty evidence) of communist sympathies, whilst sketching over the fact that the biggest security affair,(Profumo) during the cold war involved a Tory Minister of War.”
Nonsense, that is a huge exaggeration. Geoffrey Prime got 35 years for his spying. Prime gave the Soviet Union copies of documents which revealed which codes we had cracked, and as a result the Soviet Union changed their high-level systems and we were left blind for the rest of the Cold War. He single handedly ruined perhaps the most important work by the NSA and GCHQ since WWII and TICOM. Profumo was a minnow by comparison.
Coldstone going back to citing Profumo?!
Desperate, desperate stuff.
Coldstone: “Are there no depths to which you Tories won’t sink?
Long ago and far away the head of the company I worked for fought to keep a dispute with our main competitors out of the press:
“Two whores brawling in public will do none of us any good”
And that, I suspect is how much of the electorate view the claims and counter claims of both parties.
Meanwhile, what in heavens name leads Britain to think that such a semi-detached and truculent member of the EU would get one of the two top slots, least of all to a member of a government heading for a car crash of an election?
I was postively vetted.*
by coldstone November 5th, 2009 at 11:48 am
So was every major spy over the last half century. It tells you nothing much at all.
*Ps so was I several times but as I say, that tells you nothing.
But as long as Parliament by its own free will decides to keep the 1972 ECA on the statute books then it has to abide by the laws set out in that act. It cannot arbitrarily decide to ignore some parts of the law and not others.
by Richard Tyndall November 5th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Well precisely, and that is why Cameron will amend it and introduce a Sovereignty act. And no, no treaty obligation overrules the Queen in Parliament. That point of law has been tested in courts and on battle fields.
Why I am voting Tory ? Or a Tale of Two candidates.
NPMP is a sort of civilised and highly intelligent man.Marcus Wood, PPC for Torbay is a bumbling halfwit with ‘Saloon Bar’ intelligence.The only difference is that a doyen of the saloon bar would have more nous than Marcus Wood PPC for Torbay.
So why am I voting Tory ? It is simply because I trust ‘the bumbling halfwit’ more than I do ‘the sort of civilised and highly intelligent man’.
Sorry,NPMP.You blew it for me and the Labour Party, but to give you credit, at least you know how you blew it.
125.”Is the BBC News website being incredibly slow for anyone else?”
wibbler, it is for me right now. Wasn’t loading at all for a while last night.
182 - Blue Rog.
Correct - but it means continued Tory govt. Every other party would mean an undoing of whatever the Tories achieve.
I do not count UKIP because a vote for UKIP will simply elect Labour again. So Eurosceptics have one option - The Conservatives, they are a viable party and are predisposed to Euroscepticism.
Moderate Eurosceptism is dead, as the polls suggest a moderate life long Euorsceptic is about to be elected as Prime Minister.
Ha ha ha. Excellent stuff.
Truely fab.
Political anoraks will know that South Shields is the only town since the Great Reform Act of 1832 never to have had a Tory MP (or been covered by a larger constituency represented by a Tory).
Safe as houses.
When you seriously think about it the Eu deserve Milliprat.He has been the most incompetent Foreign Secretary we have probablly ever had and has insulted the Indians,Latvians,Poles and god knows who is next.Good riddance Twot absolutely no one will miss you.
p.s. any chance of taking that other village idiot with you for old times sake