Was Manchester’s decision a vote against the government?
December 12th, 2008
Are there national implications in the C-Charge rejection?
First of all hands up! I read the Manchester C-charge referendum wrongly thorough putting too much weight on the polls and believing that the £2.8bn promised investment would swing votes towards the proposal.
What are the national implications? Firstly the Manchester vote following last year’s Edinburgh rejection will mean that it’s going to be much tougher pushing through such schemes. My guess is that we won’t see a further big C-charge proposal this side of the general election.
But does it go wider than that? Can the decision by such a large number of voters across ten major boroughs in the conurbation be seen as being anti-government and if so is there are problem for Labour?
For the fact is that the proposal came out as it did because this is what ministers wanted. This was not just a vote about a locally originated proposal - it had the government’s finger-prints all over it.
It’s often said with referenda that part of any result reflects satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the party in power. Just recall how Ireland’s Lisbon vote was explained away.
In this case it’s hard to put too much weight on this notion - but there might have been an element.
What do others think?
Mike Smithson
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first?
Yes absolutely. A lot of Labour MPS in those marginals up there should be very worried
The PA says:
The turnout was 53.2% compared to 54.4% across the region in the last General Election
The option of paying more tax and getting more ’service’ didn’t sell. Even in Labour heartlands.
labour out!
No, not really… a repost from last thread..
You might as well say that the result of the NE regional assembly (a similarly stunningly enormous defeat) was a predictor of the 2005 General election result because it showed oppostion to more government vs localism.
It was a referendum on a proposal, not a referendum on competing political philosophies.
Reading the comments though, it does sound like the Yes campaign in both suffered from the same flawed understanding of the starting position of the electorate.
In the NE case, the yes campaign mistook a high level of support from those who thought a lot about devolution with a high “don’t know” rate - which gave them poll leads- would convert to a win in the referendum.
What actually happened was that virtually everyone who was a “don’t know” was very likely to vote no. looks like a similar dynamic was in place for this.
6, but this proposal was basically: “Pay more tax and you’ll get more service.”
The Tory approach to both the proposal and the wider economy is “Less service but also less taxes.”
The NE Assembly is not analagous because it was about an extra layer of government, not competing tax/spending philosophy.
Right now people don’t want more taxes.
I don’t know, but it will be a feather in the cap for the tories of the region who worked in the no campaign.
I never thought it would go thro. Most people are car owners, why would they vote for an additional steath tax. The history of promised improvements in infrastructure never pans out as expected. Until you have a fully integrated transport systemn(that will never happen) people wont vote to pay more.
Sorry repost from previous thread, fell into the new thread trap.
The Demenezes verdict will be used as a fig leaf by the BBC and left leaning press to mask the true extent of the damage caused by the Manc No and the German financial comments. I suspect by the time six o’clock rolls round they will be lucky to reach items 4 and 5 in the running order.
Mike - I suspect that for once you may have let your own political views cloud your betting judgement on this one.
From a distance (and I don’t claim to have followed it closely), this looked to me like a vote about a definite new tax, and a vague promise of better public transport. I suspect that voters thought that a Yes would mean they’d get the new tax, without much to show for it in better public transport.
As for the wider political significance - I’d be wary of drawing too many conclusions. Everyone agrees the government is unpopular, as all the polls have shown for months, to differeing extents. The only real question is how unpopular, and how that will change in coming months.
6. More desperate NuLab spin. Time to start listening to the people - they know all about stealth taxes now - we’ve had a decade of them and look where it has got us.
7. hmmm, sounds good. The government offered better services but more costs to pay, electorate chose the cheaper option, mainly because of the recession I expect. Plus the yes campaign seems to have tried to cajole people to vote it’s way, not a good idea with any people, they tend to push back.
Some figures for your perusal…
Bolton - 78.93% voted no (turnout 48.8%)
Bury - 79.44% voted no (turnout 57.4%)
Manchester - 72.17% voted no (turnout 46.1%)
Oldham - 79.68% voted no (turnout 54.5%)
Rochdale - 78.06% voted no (turnout 50.8%)
Salford - 84.45% voted no (turnout 57.0%)
Stockport - 81.15% voted no (turnout 59.0%)
Tameside - 83.58% voted no (turnout 60.7%)
Trafford - 80.34% voted no (turnout 63.6%)
Wigan - 73.86% voted no (turnout 45.3%)
The highest proportion of residents voting “no” was in Labour-controlled Salford and Tameside - higher than more obvious suspects Trafford, Stockport and Bury. It’s pretty emphatic in all ten boroughs though.
re 6. In 2005 the Labour vote nationally slumped from 42% to 36.2% - that was quite a drop and the NE referendum might have been a foretaste.
6 Hopi Sen
Disagree. Labour thought that congestion charging was popular and was the right thing to do for green / social management reasons. Their whole mindset is that people should be happy that governments take their money but give back ’sevices’. Voter has said Up Yours.
PEOPLE DON’T LIKE PAYING TAX. The key change for me is the ready willingness to forget about some aspect of public service if given the choice. I think the whole dynamic of getting value for money in the public sector and keeping more of your own money has moved away from the statist worldview.
Incidentally Mike, I’d suggest that two of the reasons you called this so badly wrong were that a) you failed to realise just how negligible the transport improvements would be for many even with the huge sums involved and b) you treated the YES campaign’s release of their canvass returns as a “poll”.
I don’t think it has much wider relevance. I am not aware of the North East’s rejection of a regional assembly in 2004 had much relevance to the General Election.
FPT:
344. I’m not getting touchy. I like it. More Germans in rimless glasses calling Brown a plonker, please.
I reckon Hopi Sen misreads the British attitude to Germany.
Along with our general sense that the sausage-eaters are cold boring automata who have appalling pop music, no clothes sense, dodgy food, effective but tedious football teams and a lebensraum attitude to sunbeds - goes a grudging but definite respect for Germans: as a smart and organised people who make fantastic cars, great beer, and who know a thing or two about running an economy.
If you asked the average Brit to point out the best run economy in Europe he would instinctively say, through gritted teeth: Germany.
That’s why this critique hurts. We may mistrust or even ridicule the Germans in certain ways, but we respect their economic success.
Imagine if Berlusconi started lecturing Brown on his economic failure. Everyone would laugh. No one laughs when the Krauts do it.
re post 10. I rest my case http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/default.stm
20, lmao. Third biggest story: “BBC drops Crufts from schedule.”
Bigger than the congestion charge, apparently.
10, 20. I don’t know about a fig leaf. If I was doing it I’d put the Menezes story higher. And on the main BBC page the C-Charge is the top News box story.
14.
Labour Labour Labour - Out Out Out! 
The North East referendum was fascinating. The pols assumed that because the North East had been voting Labour for years the people up there liked the Labour Party. It wasn’t the case. They loathe the Labour Party, they just loathe the Tories rather more. People in the North East vote Labour to keep the Tories out, not through any love of the Labour Party. Give them a free go at kicking the Labour Party and they’ll happily do so.
“Rumble in the jungle
What the creeping return of the big beasts says about British politics”
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12767290
20 - What nonsense. The De Menezes story is simply a bigger story. The C-charge story is not huge outside Greater Manchester - it’s interesting enough but not in a top of the running-order way.
I think Blair missed a trick in ‘97. He could have announced a massive UK based government backed scheme into the development of a viable electric and/or alternative powered vehicle(s) to be implemented and introduced within 10 years.
19. Exactly, we don’t have any great love for Germany, but we have a grudging respect (unlike France, who we hate) for them and what they can do. If this had been the French attacking it would have made no difference, but as it’s the German’s people sit up and take notice.
What is astonishing is that opposition was consistent across all 10 boroughs, around 70-80% in all. It would have been terrible to see the region torn assunder with a split 50/50 vote or 5 boroughs against 5.
A truly magnificent result, and there is absolutely no way of spinning this one. It’s an EPIC FAIL on the part of the Left, the Labour Govt and their local authority and public sector cronies.
And they said they had 80% support!
I shall be getting somewhat drunk later….
There is no dispute that it is “an” important story. However it is about the death of one man. Can you name any of the people who were killed on 7/7 without looking it up. My point is that it provides the opportunity for saturation coverage at the exclusion of all else. On the UK page (we are in the UK) Manc is at least third, the german criticism is not mentioned at all. However, Brown claiming that all Europe is behind is plan is the second story. It may be I am paronoid about the BBC but they certainly provide enough evidence to make paronoia easy.
On a side note. What happens with the Senate rejecting the auto bailout. Should I be making preparations for the end of days?
10, 20, 26. Er, the C-Charge rejection is the second most read news item on the BBC website right now.
That’s the bit of the site you should check - not how the BBC runs the story - but how many people actually read each story.
Yesterday the German attack was consistently in the top 5 “most read” stories, which is why it stings Labour.
27 - And why would that have been more likely to lead to a viable electric and/or alternative powered vehicle than private investment? It would simply have crowded out such investment and would have been a ludicrous idea.
7. I don’t disagree too much with your last sentence, but I think it’s very foolish to read into that a national political message.
To take the NE example, that too was a central government proposal supported and called for by the regional political “elite”.
The opposition to it was driven, very smartly by “a more government means more spending means more waste means higher cost to you without doing much” - it was a very conservative message, both in big and little C terms - localist, anti-government, pro business anti -”burdens” and this message won by huge margins in some of labour’s safest seats 5 months before the general election.
Didn’t make a blind bit of difference.
In fact one of the most relatively pro assembly areas - City of Durham - was the seat which swung most decisively against Labour in 2005.
29, 80% support from the party that thinks we have 37% debt. They’re useless with numbers.
So if the Met were so confident he was a bomber - why did their versions of events differ from the witness ?
What happens next ? Was it a waste of 3 months and millions of £ ?
29. It will be interesting to see whether Labour do a Barclays aka Sark!
I’m not surprised it was rejected so emphatically.
We’re in recession. People’s thoughts don’t immediately go to green issues and an increase in tax. They go to saving the money in their pocket.
I’m not sure it’s necessarily a vote against Labour, but I think it’s a vote against vague government promises and bribes. At the end of the day the extra investment was promised, but we’ve learnt in the past 10 years that while extra investment does lead to some improvement, a proportion is often wasted.
I think people were sceptical that they’d see much improvement; and in addition to a tax on their cars and the economic situation it was just unpaletable.
[10] - The German financial comments were yesterday’s news anyway.
I know De Menezes was but one man, against a million voters in Manchester, but a bloke being shot by the police, and the extraordinary media gagging order and other exceptional decisions made by the coroner, surely make this more newsworthy than whether motorists in Manchester pay £5 to drive to work each day.
32 - And the number one story is “Moon sails close to Earth”. Should that top the news running order, Sean?
The biggest travesty is how much this whole campaign cost the taxpayer (would it be local tax?)when the results show that walking down the High Street for half an hour would have given the obvious result. Just more money squandered unnecessarily.
32. He was making a point about the BBC being biased. I don’t think putting the Menezes story higher is being biased.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7779612.stm
“Straw off hook on late donation”. Shocking.
7. Morris Dancer: Right now people don’t want more taxes.
Read our lips. No new taxes!
mungo - the bid up to this point has cost upwards of £30m. Some of this has come from the central pot but the rest will be shouldered by local taxpayers - and it’s all come from the public purse.
Sir Howard, can we have our money back please?
32 - And I note the 4th most e-mailed story is “Toddlers’ toilet seat crush peril”. If Newsnight don’t cover it extensively tonight, I will know the BBC is hopelessly overrun by Commies and will stop paying my licence fee.
42. I actually was making the point the BBC would use it as a fig leaf to hide behind. They will give it saturation coverage to the exclusion of all else. I have not said it should not be the top story I have said it should not be the “only” story.
40. Wh? Duh? Eh? I’m not saying the popularity of each story should decide its prominence, I’m just saying if you wanna assess the political impact of a story, you need to see how many people are reading it - that’s all that matters.
“German attacks Brown” was the 2nd or 3rd most read story yesterday. “C-Charge Rejection” is number 2 at the moment.
We can argue whether the “popularity” of a story will have any affect on opinion, but there’s no denying that for a story to affect opinions, in the first place - it has to be widely disseminated.
That’s all I is sayin. And now my hangover is demanding another aspirin.
30. I was surprised on BBC News last night that when the correspondent in Brussels was asked about the pound/euro exchange rate he answered on the European economic stimulus and how it would show Europe agreed with Brown. Completely different to what was asked and it does make one wonder sometimes.
19: Should also be mentioned that the (West) Germans absorbed a fairly poor eastern european country not so long ago. A rough analogy would be Romania joining the UK, followed by London sending astronomical sums eastward to rapidly transform their economy (one estimate was even today it’s a 100 billion euro/year drag on the German economy)
14. Just goes to show Labour voters only vote for spending when they don’t have to pay for it!
Is this good news for Nick?
Clipstone, Newark and Sherwood DC (Sherwood) Lab gain from Ind. Con vote 6% -15, Lab 47% +8, LD 27 from nowhere, Ind 20 -24.
46 you best stop paying it right now then
And what will the Government do over this issue?
This gets worse by the minute
Telegraph: US car bail-out: General Motors calls for UK Government rescue
General Motors, which employs 5,500 people around the UK, is in talks with the British government to secure cash to allow it to continue operating in what the car maker admits are “critical” conditions.
48 - Fair enough, but I am not sure it follows that a story being read extensively means it is likely to have political impact. The main message from the rejection of the C-charge is that it won’t happen in Manchester and probably won’t be pursued elsewhere. That’s interesting and relevant to people, but not really a vote changer any more than “Toddlers’ toilet seat crush peril”.
27 R&D into electric vehicles in the UK, is a complete waste of time until the power infrastructure receives the investment it needs. The government have dithered and dawdled over the difficult but necessary decision regarding the construction of new power plants. We’re going to have problems keeping the lights on within 5-10 years. Surplus power to recharge electric cars? No chance.
52. No, by the way i am having a bad day today you grumpy old git so i will give you some abuse instead of the other way round!
Did you forget to change your incontinence pants last night or have you run out of those medical supplies that Bob Dole used to strongly advocate? 
32. this section almost always proves that people prefer to clock on the most ridiculous/frivolous headlines
54. GM share price is going to be white knuckle today
http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?q=NYSE:GM
54. Where are the jobs going to be lost? If it’s Labour constituencies then I suspect they will get a hand-out.
57
I’ll ‘ave you know sir, old I may be but the waterworks are in perfect working order. Sorry I gave you a bad day, its Xmas brings out the worse in me, and that’s a lot of worse to bring out.
13. As well as the anti-tax message from this vote, it may also signify intense scepticism over the government’s ability to deliver improved services. Hardly surprising after the last 11 years…
47. And yet rested your case based on the Menezes story being higher than it on the BBC News bit. Even though the top story on the news bit of the BBC front page is the C-Charge.
Frankly I don’t think the Menezes case can be given too much coverage. The police shot an innocent man and quite possibly lied about it! Now a jury has refused a verdict of lawful killing.
I don’t feel that this is a vote against Labour, it’s simply people saying “we don’t want to pay to drive into an area because you certainly won’t invest in public transport as promised if the congestion charge goes ahead”. Money is tight for a great proportion of the population at the moment so they don’t want to pay any more in taxes.
I found that Question Time in Birkenhead was interesting last night, very little support for Brown from anyone at all in a typically red hot Labour area.
61. It’s ok i was joking above!
Don’t take offence!
32,. I think you’re behind the times, Sean
The german economy massively outperformed us in the sixties, seventies and eighties, but since re-unification they’ve not been the economic success story they once were. They’ve had stagnation, recession and a horrible reaction to labour market liberalisation.
Ask yourself this, at any time over the last few years have you argued that the solution to Briatins ills is that we should adoptthe policies of the Schroeder/Merkel governments?
54
As there is about 40% world wide overcapacity in car making, the Government should save its money.
GM Europe is run by GM Germany: any suggestion that Vauxhall can survive in plant closures is farcical.
67. 1 Vauxhall plant is in Luton - other may be Liverpool ?
50. depends what you mean by drag on the economy. those east germans were generally willing to work hard when given the chance, bit like the poles that came over here.
Via Dale:
Michael Gove in the Commons yesterday:
some hon. Members [...] may have been listening to the Prime Minister taking pride in his global rescue plan. Well, we now know what the man in charge of Europe’s biggest economy thinks of that. The Prime Minister may believe, in his more modest moments, that he is Franklin D. Roosevelt, but the truth is that he is closer to a political Max Mosley: he thinks he is king of the world and he has clearly got money to burn, but all people remember is that he got a terrific spanking in German.
9- This is reminiscent of a New York subway system fare hike that the MTA (Metropolitan Transit Authority) begged for about two years ago, promising all sorts of wonderful service improvements if only the relevant government authorities would approve it. They did, and within a few months of the fare hike, the MTA announced (surprise!) that there were suddenly unanticipated costs and all of the money would have to go to filling those budget holes (i.e., no service improvements). Now, the MTA is threatening draconian cuts to services if they aren’t given billions more. A cautionary tale.
Both Luton South and North are Labour held with 6-7000 majorities, so both are marginals
58. Well, the most popular stories are usually a mix of the ridiculous (plastic dinosaur crushes Pope), the lurid (i.e. anything to do with sex) and the very serious.
My rule-of-thumb is that if a serious news story makes it into the most-read list, then that means it probably will have some impact on public perceptions (depending on what it is, natch).
68
Ellsmere Port Liverpool
70
63. I’m far less worried about this story than the barrister shot in SW London and the chap shot near a cathedral the other day.
In this story, the entire city was shitting itself. I remember, I was there. I remember watching all the asian looking men on the tube looking as scared as the rest of us, and that no-one could stop themselves looking at them the whole time. It must have been terrible for them.
It was no surprise the police shot this guy, they thought he had a bomb under his coat. A bus had just exploded near the Museum spraying blood and bodyparts everywhere, we were all expecting more of the same. It’s tragic, ut it’s totally understandable given the circumstances.
I also think that focusing on witness statements for something that happened at speed years ago is silly. Eyewitness accounts are not reliable evidence for such things.
I’d rather know why the police have taken to shooting anyone they see with a gun. If they’re not being fired at they should talk the people round. I expect them to take this risk.
My two cents on the German issue: The English have had far less of a problem since we beat them 5-1 a few years back. It finally banished our feelings of footballing inferiority towards them. Since we’ve got rid of that chip on our shoulder we haven’t looked back.
73. i’ve noticed that an increasing number of the articles are written with deliberately misleading shock headlines, presumably to get them higher up that list. i doubt many people read past the first sentence when they realise they were conned into clicking on it (i.e. when it turns out that the pope in question was also a plastic model in a west london playschool)
65
When I was very, very young, (stand by its an ‘ol git story) I spent six months under canvas, on what was then the border between South and North Yemen. I was attached, (not physically) to 45 Commando RM. They were very good at two things, killing anything that moved, and making me as miserable as possible. After that you become immune to, ‘taking offence’
[73] - Certainly it’s easier to tell then based on the running order of the news, as people will generally only pay attention to what they are interested in, and the internet at least helps to give you that information.
I’m sure the Manchester vote will be covered by the BBC, I’d expect Crick to do a slot on Newsnight about it, but it would have received more attention on most other days.
78. There appears to be a hit-count war going on.
corporeal@63: No ‘quite possibly’ about it - the jury explicitly rejected the Met account on several key points. No warning shout, no movement made by deMenezes towards the officers, etc.
ed@69: yeah, that wasn’t my meaning, more that the huge flows of investment needed to modernise the East German economy were insanely expensive. It’s pretty expensive to utterly restructure a country to capitalism from a complete command economy - in 80s East Germany the private sector was only 1%ish of the economy.
9. “Until you have a fully integrated transport systemn[sic](that will never happen) people wont vote to pay more.”
I campaigned in favour but I agree that people just won’t vote to pay more, hence the result.
whether you have a fully integrated transport system, are promised one (as the TIF bid did) or will never have one. Drivers who will pay a charge have a key incentive to vote no, and everybody else is part of that massive”don’t know”
What I found interesting was the number of non-drivers who voted no because in a few years time they may become a diver an work in central Manchester. In the end its the same old story of why the British electorate will always vote against higher rates of income tax for the super rich.
66. Derr. Again a tediously stupid post.
I’m not saying - and never said, go check - that Germany IS a massive economic success story. They do have structural problems, and the East is still a basketcase, dragging them down; that said they are the world’s biggest exporter, and GDP per head in West Germany is still comparatively high.
But none of this matters anyhow. I’m talking about public perceptions. And the public perceive Germany as a well-run economy, with lots of organised and efficient people in charge. This is based on the postwar history of German success and the mighty Dmark, plus an admiration for excellent German exports, especially cars.
Vorsprung durch Technik, and all that.
We can argue til you eventually grow a brain as to whether this public perception is valid, but its irrelevant to my argument.
The public think Germany = strong economy, run by boring but competent bankers in rimless glasses.
That’s why a critique from them hurts Brown. As we can tell from Labour’s rattled reaction.
If there is an effect to the C-Charge referendum then it is that Labour can be defeated in its ’strongholds’ and it is ok to oppose them. Given it is a Labour stronghold it may well be the first time that a lot of people their has voted against them. The fact that people won and defeated Labour may undermine their perpetual ‘vote Labour’ mindset. It may encourage them to consider alternatives (just as after the NE assembly result, Newcastle turned against Labour in local elections). Who they might turn to is anyone’s guess?
Interesting to see how the city and area votes in the Council and Euro elections in 2009.
64. Birkenhead is certainly monolithically Labour (at least at parliamnetary level) but I would imagine that most of the audience last night would have been from throughout the Wirral where both the Lib Dems & the Tories are strong.
74. Wash your mouth out! Ellesmere Port in Liverpool? Wrong side of the Mersey mate, it’s on the superior west bank.
Why is it that when the public get a vote, local elections, Manchester C charge it`s nowhere near the poll results taken. Is this just a protest against the government, or do they see stealth taxes
Have Labour something to worry about for the general election
82. i agree but the results have clearly been well worth it - a large, modern, unified democratic country with a powerhouse economy.
focussing only on the cost completely ignores the reality of what life was like before that. spending money on genuinely improving the place is rarely money wasted.
87. Are you suggesting that people are more likely to vote Labour in opinion polls than real polls or that pollsters ask the wrong people ?
86
I wrote Ellesmere Port Liverpool as the great unwashed down South have no idea where the Wirral is.
Nowhere in Liverpool is superior: it’s all one big tip.
Although I voted ‘yes’ (on the grounds that I favour road pricing and this was a move in that direction) I wasn’t at all surprised by the result. All of the evidence was that this was massively unpopular. I don’t think this is an anti-Labour vote as such. It is however a vote against higher taxes - there was a general feeling that this was just another revenue raising device. The other factor is that a lot of people are motorists who would sooner put pins in their eyes than use public transport and feel they are being taxed enough as it is. Saying that this was needed to get investment in public transport cuts no ice with this group of voters because they have no interest in it anyway - for them it’s cars or nothing.
88. Indeed. This is why South Korean bureaucrats are regularly sent to Germany to work out how they did it so well.
87- As you see in the contrast between Democrats’ sweeping victories in California alongside the success of Proposition 8 (banning gay marriage), people often vote very differently when asked a specific question as opposed to voting for a party. If the UK is anything like the U.S. in voter behavior, Labour probably doesn’t have much to worry about in this matter.
I don’t think this signals the end of C-charge plans, merely the end of referenda on them
In a time of great uncertainty, bringing forward ‘unnecessary’ extra changes of any significance is hardly likely to be a popular move, whether it’s needed or not. people prefer the misery that they know and love. They are comfortable with their bumper-to-bumper existence. Gives the miserable Mankies something to moan about.
86. Fair point but I have never known so little support for Labour in a Question Time programme- at one point Esther Rantzen got booed heavily for simply saying that Brown was doing a good job around the world.
Should it not be asked, not necessarily a vote against the government, but a vote against the way this government is increasingly doing business. You only get this, if you do as we say on that. Bullying / Gun to head.
Manchester was only going to get £3+ billion of public transport improvements, that no doubt it needs, but only if they introduced congestion charging. Could it not be argued that this way of doing is business is what has angered many and caused such a large no vote. Bullying people seems to be the way Brown government does business. Be it the banks, the energy companies, people of Manchester. Maybe this vote showed that even the Labour heartland of Manchester is waking up to this and doesn’t like it.
96. How much botox did she have injected into her face ? - she could barely speak.
Didn’t look the full shilling either - her praise for Brown went down like a fart in a space ship.
Though Nadine came across as pretty normal (for her).
84. To prove my point, imagine if this critique of our economy had come from any other nation. ANY other nation.
I don’t think it would have had half as much impact.
If the French had sneered at “Labour’s failure” we’d have just remembered how much we dislike the French, and we’d ascribe their latest display of pique down to their being annoyed cause we got more medals than them at Beijing - or whatever.
If the Spanish, Greeks, Italians, Portugese or any other “southern” country had made the critique we’d have just laughed it off, what do they know, pizza eating layabouts, go make a paella, etc.
If the Americans had done it, we’d have snapped right back - er Fannie Mae? Freddie Mac? subprime mortgages?
If the criticisms had come from a rich but small country - Switzerland, Denmark - it probably wouldn’t have made the news.
Even if the Japs had ridiculed our economy, I don’t think we’d have cared. It might have stung a little, but they are too far away and too weird to have any cultural impact.
Likewise China, Singapore, blah blah
The Germans are just about the only people who could say this stuff and make it hurt. Cause we have an innate if grudging (and arguably misguided) respect for the biggest economy in Europe and the biggest exporting nation in the world.
84. Derrr, another totally missing the point post.
Sean - you don’t think that Germany has been a great economic success story. Neither does anyone else, because since re-unification, German economc “success” has been marked by unemployment, stagnation and lethargy.
As a result, for the last decade, this has allowed the laughing boys of the commentary pages to make a german politicians and economic policy a laughing stock.
Is it beyond imagining that this has affected the rosy picture you paint of the publics perception of German economic triumph.
90. I know, I have to wallow amongst them these days.
Are you from Manchester or something?!
97
Bullying caused the failure?
perhaps.
Maybe an ad campagn supposed to be independent that had to be pulled when judged to be pro charging?
No Mandelson PR there: no subtlety: just plain outright bias.
As the supposed independent advice is judged biased, then no wonder YES lost.
88: Couldn’t agree more.
The original point was more about judging German economic success though, which in the previous thread one of our local astroturfers was trying to denigrate with GDP per capita figures. Rather meaningless without mentioning the cost of reunification.
91. It still dose’t solve the age old question of Tax and how to apply it. Would people have voted Yes to £3Billion of investment paid for by a raise in council tax? I’d image not. How about a local income tax to pay for it?
I bet if it was £3Billion of central government give-away then nobody would batter an eyelid. We’d still all pay for it but we wouldn’t see the invoice. Somehow central government is like Norton Finance in that regard, they consolidate your expenditure and charge you a premium to go with it so that sir Humphrey can go to his opera.
64 Re Q/T I noticed that too. Like at Basildon the other week there was a lot of inherent anti-government feeling in the audience but the Tory spokeswoman failed to capitalise. Will Self stole the show with his putdown of Nadine Dorries “you don’t understand economics do you” and later his rude but hilarious gestures at her (blink and you’d miss them).
9 MTF got it in one - it’s simply a vote against yet another stealth tax, end of.
Have to agree with 94 this isn’t the end of congestion charging / road pricing, it is just the beginning. Just because Manchester said no, I feel that it will count for very little in the long run. The only short term effect will be Manchester won’t be on the governments Xmas card list and that I’m sure grants will be harder to come by, especially for infrastructure improvements.
89
The Manchester congestion charge was a stealth tax accompanied by a bribe.. Doesn’t augur well for Gordo’s planning come a GE campaign…..
100
You are right : post unification Germany has struggled to achieve budget surpluses. Civil servants have had to retire later and pensions have been cut.
But still they achieved a surplus…
99. if the criticism of Britains economic policy had come from any other country, then a barrage of posters on here would be hailing that country as the greatest economic success sotry de nos jours.
q.v. Canada, where harper was opposing stimulus (until they had terrible jobs news, predicted recession and promplty did a U turn)
89 No I wonder why the poll was 80% in favour and then a huge vote against, something does`nt work out
93 - It was an amusing little irony that arguably Obama motivating African American turnout led to Prop 8 passing (as there were very high levels of support for it amongst AAs).
Actually, I don’t think the numbers support that argument (the margin was enough that it probably didn’t matter). But I never let facts get in the way of a good story.
66. It’s interesting the way the NuLab spin machine is still in overdrive on this - even to the point where in the previous thread Mr. Sen resorted to racial stereotyping of the men in’rimless glasses’. The only reasonable conclusion is that Gordon has been seriously stung by the German’s critcism - the truth has a habit of hurting hard. Also amusing the way the lefties resort to all kinds of unpleasantness about foreigners when they are up against it. The awful Mr. Woolas comes to mind in this context. This must be terribly disheartening for many of their supporters who like to think of themselves as holding the moral high ground.
110. Do you think Brown’s ponzi scheme economy could have absorbed Eastern Germany ? Don’t make me laugh.
The boom was an illusion - a huge casino in Canary Wharf paid for by the huge mortgages of the Uk populace.
History will not be kind to Mr Brown.
96. I rarely watch question time these days but I have seen that either you get an audience that’s very anti-Tory or very anti-Labour (normally where you expect). I suppose it depends on who gets organised to get their people applying for tickets first & smartly to make sure they get into the audience.
107. How can government get people to stomach the charge? Its very clear that one will never get a referendum yes vote. And if an LA wants to implement one without a referendum then the no campaign point to Manchester and Edinburgh saying “the had one why can’t we”
99 I am not sure that we really would benefit if the UK’s economy resembled the Germans.
For example currently, the Germans manufacture and export the CDs required to play British music. You may not like Coldplay (etc), but one industry might have a future one certainly does not.
100. Your desperate attempts to paint Germany as some economic disaster-zone (despite being the greatest exporter in the world) merely prove my point:
Labour are rattled by this attack. Because they know how damaging it might be. Because it comes from the Germans.
Manchester C charge If a couple have to drive into the centre, this was going to cost £50 per week. Where were they going to get that, a week extra, the way things are
O/T for this one, but has been discussed previously. Could this
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5327939.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084
indicate that Brown is considering going early? He may fear the tories finding ammunition to use against him in a snap election. It is self evident (in my opinion) that the whole truth of the Countries finances have not been revealed and could be catastrophic if exposed in time to build them into a case in the run up to an election.
113: racial stereotyping? pfft. He wears rimless glasses. It’s an observable fact, not a stereotype.
If you wish me to be balanced I will also concede that on occassion it is posible to distinguish between out prime Minister and a ray of sunshine. This is also an observation, not a stereotype.
Still, what can you expect from someone who employs the tedious and grating nulab formulation, a full decade after it ceased to be in any way new or entertaining
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alK8OZ1jv654&refer=home
More on the 2nd stage of money burning..
“To date, the government has allocated 37 billion pounds to buy stakes in HBOS Plc, Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc and Lloyds TSB Group Plc. The Treasury always planned to take the value of that program to 50 billion pounds. Brown didn’t give any details of the government discussions. “
107. I agree, I don’t think it is the end of congestion charging, persay, but I suspect it will be the end for the short to medium term. Where is going to attempt it in the near future?
Given the result, the current economic situation and the sparsity of potential Labour controlled councils, the recession and the current unclear overall political situation, what metropolitan council will contemplate such a policy?
Realistically, I think this has put back congestion charging 5 years at least and in 5 years time there may be other factors that make it inconceiveable.
112- I love your last line! You sound just like an American journalist, except for the fact that you are honest.
The attacks and intimidation by gays in California against black individuals who may or may not have supported Proposition 8 is indeed one of the curious ironies of the post-election period, and highlights one of the long-latent fissures in the Democratic base. The California left-wing media have rushed to condemn (although not always in strong terms) gay attacks against blacks while shamefully having relatively little to say about gay attacks against Mormons and Republicans who may or may not have supported Prop 8. They are clearly bothered by dissention within the Democratic ranks but are little concerned with brownshirt tactics unleashed against political opponents of one of their favored groups. It is a great irony to see journalists trumpet the virtues of the First Amendment regarding their own rights while having nothing but contempt for anyone disagreeing with them who wishes to exercise their First Amendment rights (or other rights).
I hate QT obsession with getting quasi celebs on the panel, Rantzen, Brian Moore, David Mitchell, etc. I have little to no interest in what they have to say, and to be perfectly honest many of the people from the world of tv/entertainment don’t live in the real world. I doubt they spend their days reading PB.com, all the major newspapers, Spectator, New Statesman etc, so their opinion is unlikely to be particularly well informed.
QT should be the opportunity for the public to grill the politicians, plus people from the world of business, charities, public sector, on how government policy (and opposition proposals) will effect the country.
105. Self did steal the show last night, the problem with Labour is that they rarely get anyone who is either known or a good debater (Hazel Blears has appeared so many times I believe she has a death wish:)). The Tories do this as well to an extent, although at least Osbourne was on a few weeks back.
The problem I have with Question Time is that for the Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish it’s a bit of a farce as they rarely do get to debate their own issues when it’s held in England. Likewise when it is outside of England, it’s very geared towards where it is held and sometimes not relevant to a massive proportion of the country. There needs to be an opt out for the other three nations in my opinion so that they get there own show more often- you could pay for it with the money saved from not showing Crufts anymore:).
Mike Smithson-Although you are never boring you must be bored.
Let’s wait for the next set of polls and some real action.
I hope the polls really stick it to the Tories just for the pleasure of hearing the Tory Boys squealing.
I hate them !
For the record,all my serious money will be with The Tories to win the next GE and it is 60% likely I will be voting for them.
125, quite, although it hasn’t been as bad as it was in the recent past (Davina McCall and that div from Blur for example).
Three politicians from the main parties, another from a smaller one perhaps, and a journalist or businessman with a brain is the way it should be.
52,
not really Coldstone. Newark and Sherwood is pretty evenly split down the middle in terms of political leanings. The North and West are mining country and solidly Labour, the east and south including Newark are mostly Tory and Southwell is Lib Dem.
This was a Labour regain of a seat that should always have been theirs anyway.
Take this CC thingy a bit further… given a vote, would the public approve of all the money it’s going to cost for the government to flaunt its green credentials?
125. To be fair, David Mitchell strikes me as exactly the sort of person who spends his days reading PB.com, the major newspapers, the Spectator, New Statesman etc…
Which is why I like him so much.
Same applies to Charlie Brooker, who I wish posted here…
Seems that HYS of Beeb is overwhelmings supportive of the No vote. Draperbots will have a busy afternoon trying to balance up the responses
121. Some proof for you, Hopi. The BBC does a World Service poll every year, to get global perceptions of various countries. They interview about 20,000 people
From this year’s result:
“Germany, rated for the first time in the BBC poll, got the highest positive ranking of all countries included in the survey this year: 56% said it has a positive influence and 18% gave it a negative rating, with not a single country giving it a majority negative rating.
Japan came in as second most popular, also with 56% approving its influence, but a slightly higher disapproval rating at 21%.”
http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/04/02/world_view_of_us_betters_israel_iran_low/4800/
Now, this doesn’t tell us the British results, but I’d be surprised if we differ much from our neighbours (and note that NO country, including Britain, gave a negative rating for Germany).
Note also that the second country in the list is Japan.
Why do Japan and Germany do well? I think it’s partly because people admire their perceived economic success, EVEN THOUGH THAT PERCEPTION MAY BE OUTDATED.
Try it for yourself. Go out on the street and ask a hundred Brits to name an economically successful country in Europe. I’d bet a fiver a large number will say “Germany”. A few might say Ireland.
Not that many would say “Britain”, right now.
113. You look back at what you wrote m8 - very clear and not that subtle. Also I know I’m getting it right when I’m being ‘ tedious and grating’ to Labour supporters. The fact is that the Germans do not want to bail us out of this mess, which is sad because ironically they can just about afford to do it which is more than can be said for bankrupt UK thanx to a decade of NuLabbery!
100, 118. Don’t forget that public perceptions of Germany were transformed in a positive way by German’s hosting of the World Cup. Thousands of people who would previously never have thought to visit the country left feeling very impressed by how affluent and well-run it is.
First-hand experience has a greater effect than sneering in the comment pages.
131, the problem is that most comedians are lefties, as are two of the three main parties, further unbalancing the panel.
I remember humourless arsehead Marcus Brigstock who reckoned we didn’t need a vote on Lisbon as he couldn’t understand it. Apparently that matters more than three manifesto commitments.
113 It’s great isn’t it - remember the righteous handwringing over Boris Johnson’s misquoted article regarding ‘water melon smiles’.
66 Why stop with ‘rimless glasses? Slip in a mention of black leather raincoats whilst you’re at it.
Labour racial stereotyping = Good, perfectly acceptable
136 He does have a point.
As someone who travels to Germany fortnightly to visit manufacturing locations they have a balanced economy with intelligent people in charge.
They also allow smoking adverts on billboards and hunting. Perhaps Zanulabour should have concentrated more on the economy and less on the latter ?
131 - Ok maybe David Mitchell maybe a bad example. But Rantzen, Moore, Alex James…..
136. Manifesto commitments are irrelevant to someone who didn’t make one. You can argue they’re a reason for the major parties to support having a referendum. But if he didn’t think there should be one in the first place he’s entitled to stick to his guns on that.
And the ability of the public to understand the issue is an important factor in deciding whether to hold a referendum.
I see Santandar are axing 1900 UK finance jobs!
I have just applied to the local bus company for a job as a bus driver! Finance is dead!
Germany has ID cards, yes, but Labour’s centralised, data-acquiring ID scheme would actually be ILLEGAL under the German Constitution!
133. You do realise that the economy is not mentioned in that poll, don’t you? Not once in the article you quote with such misplaced pride. Is that the best five minutes of frantic googling could find you?
Since Germany was the biggest western economy to oppose Iraq and is friendly to a lot of middle eastern states it’s not surprising that people have a positive impression of it. Doesn’t mean people think they instictively know what to do about the economic downturn.
138
I see so because Brigstock cant understand the implications of the Lisbon treaty, noone needs to vote on it. On that basis we would neber have any elections about anything, very Brownesque.
137. If I understand rightly, the population of London contracted for the first time in 2008 purely because of the exodus of lefties following Boris’ win.
They are now returning slowly in drips and drabs having realised he does not actually eat babies.
on the C charge…..not sure how much it has to do with labour per se; the MP quoted speaking against it in the BBC report is actually a labour MP….As it happens he is massively in favour of public transport, and believes in re-nationalisation - if even someone like him was in the no camp, it isn’t difficult to see how it failed…..if i’d known that before, i’d have been tempted at a good wedge on the 1-3………
Oh dear cooking the boooks again on crime figures, and this isn’t a claim from the Tories this time, it is the head of UK Stats Authority (i.e ONS).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7780057.stm
148. Jesus !
145 So your against transparency and issues being put in a form that people can understand them.
148, arrest that man at once!
to those who think having a referendum on a C-charge is a “stealth tax”:
what sort of tax would not be a stealth tax?
in my opinion this Con party attack line has been so often repeated as to have lost all meaning.
137. 2/10 - Must try harder.
A remark I’m sure you’re familiar with, and which still applies today.
140. Rantzen has a long term close connection with children’s charities. Currently president of the NSPCC.
Alex James is a newspaper columnist. Which often seems to be enough for others. He’s also one of ‘the youth’.
They may not be frontline political commentators, but they’re not random celebrities.
Moore’s harder to argue in favour since he’s purely sporting.
150, the EU should make the Treaty easier to understand then, shouldn’t it?
Come on Mike Smithson of Political Betting.
Why did the “polls” get the C charge vote so wrong?
125 etc. Will Self (a comedian?) struck me as being more astute than all 4 of the other panellists. He also made the interesting observation of how politics under NuLab has become all about the consumer and consumption rather than the producer, means of production etc. You do need bright people from outside the Westminster bubble because sometimes they do think from outside the scripted box.
155 Absolutely.
I believe seanT’s daring suggestion that the germans could run our economy better than we can is just the latest episode in a damascene conversion to europhilia.
Make of this what you will - Gordo’s Xmas Card.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/3724061/Gordon-Brown-unveils-traditional-Christmas-card.html
Personally, such a symbol of impersonal authority doesn’t fill me with Christmas Cheer.
159. “I am a closed door” is what is says to me.
157, so then the fault lies with an organisation deliberately making a proposed Treaty hard to understand. And if we don’t understand it, we shouldn’t sign up to it.
I love our country(the UK just to clarify) and I revere its institutions.Do any of you regularly watch BBC Parliament ?
I do, even in the quiet times when the groupies have long gone and it is just decent men and women debating in a far more civilised fashion than you will ever encounter on the internet.
I love the USA for different reasons.I love the sheer in your face rudery that characterises political life.I adore those Senate enquiries and those in Congress although I was never a big fan of Joe McCarthy.
An amalgm of the two would constitute sheer perfection.
You can keep Germany and Japan…unless you are a collector of memorabilia.
160. Good point - ‘the lights are out and nobody’s home’ or ‘last person standing close the door on the way out’
Labour are clearly rattled by the German attack. The cat’s out of the bag. We’re an inefficient, wasteful and careless country which will deserve to lose its wealth.
162…don’t they say that the only good Jap/Kraut is a d….. one.
153 And your point is?
How can the leader of The Labour Party, The Labour Party, support an organisation, however worthy, called Maggies?
144. Hysterical.
From a 1997 poll of British students’ perceptions of Germany:
“According to the majority, Germans are: “orderly, (disciplined, organised, efficient, obedient to rules, inflexible, punctual); hard-working, (laborious and ambitious); arrogant (particularly in intellectual matters); complex (difficult to understand, Angst-ridden)”
i.e. they are a bit boring and you might not invite them to a party, but boy they know how to make a car - and run an economy.
Or try this: in 1999 Mori asked Brits who they felt could teach us the most about how to run an economy - the Germans, the Americans or the French.
Surprise surprise, the Germans came top. France was cited by a dismal 5%.
etc etc
161. And if we want a system that’s not entirely simple?
166. If you take some time to ponder on it, I’m sure that you’ll eventually understand. This has the added benefit that the standard of debate here will go up in the interim.
Alex James spent many years shoveling large amount of white powder up his nose, while his mate wrote decent pop tunes. He then retired to be a gentleman farmer. Running out of money they are now reforming.
His reason for being on QT was to plug / talk about his documentary about his “journey of discovery that opened a window on what impact coke growing and manufacture has on Latin America”. He was completely clueless before doing the film. Doesn’t sound like he is very well informed about the world does he. Lots of people have newspaper / magazine columns, but doesn’t mean they are well informed and have much worth saying.
No, I don’t think that a congestion charge referendum can be taken as a vote against the government. Rational human beings will go to almost any reasonable length to save money so if they’re suddenly presented with a straight question that amounts to “do you want to pay lots of extra money in return for…nothing?” the answer is fairly obvious. I know it ought to be in return for lower congestion and environmental protection, but that’s a bit too abstract and uncertain for a lot of people.
At the risk of incurring ChristinaD’s wrath once again by tastelessly featuring the words “SNP” and “good news for” in the same sentence, I think I’m entitled to have a small gloat now that both Ayrshire by-election results are in - a 4% swing to the SNP in one, and a 15% swing in the other. It’ll be interesting to see how others square this with the well-rehearsed “heartlands flocking back to Labour” theory and the “shine has come off SNP following economic crisis” theory.
169 Do you really think the UK economy should be reformed to be more like the Germans?
165-I don’t normally employ that kind of lingo.Because I love the English speaking peeps doesn’t mean I automatically reject the linguistically challenged.
I spent a lot of time in Germany and formed the opinion that the kids were of far superior quality to our youth; but that was an affluent spa town and it is a long time since I visited Buxton.
Btw, Congestion charge story already 6th story on Beeb website.
172. Being a journalist is all the qualifications many panelists have.
171…apologies. i meant 163!
171 ‘This has the added benefit that the standard of debate here will go up in the interim.’
Why? Are you leaving pb.com for the afternoon to spread more nonsense over on the message boards at bbc.co.uk? How kind.
169. Sean, Sean, Sean.
You really need to get better at google. It’s an essential skill for the modern internet bore. It took you a quarter of an hour and you came up with a decade old survey of students?
1997 you quote? you pray in aid 1999? When my point was that in the last few years the impression of German economic triumph has been eroded by the weakness of their economy and fractured political leadership?
Have HBOS/Lloyds TSB announces any job losses yet or are those still in the pipeline?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7780069.stm
@Hopi Sen:
You’re in a condescending mood this afternoon, dear. Own lots of Stagecoach shares or something?
90. Nowhere in Liverpool is superior: it’s all one big tip
Let me see now.
UNESCO World Heritage site
Home of the only National Galleries and Museums outside of London
2,500 listed buildings (including at least two acknowledged as their finest of their type in the world). Only London has more listed buildings.
Most beaches of any Metropolitan area in the country
More Parks and Gardens than other provincial city
The original “red-brick” university, plus two others.
More Georgian architecture than Bath…
Some tip.
@180:
Do you have any actual evidence to support your claims? It’s easy to rubbish SeanT’s data without providing any of your own, but you can’t seriously expect to get away with it.
182. I enjoy bantering with Sean. He’s a good writer, and I sense the one thing he hates is to be treated with amused contempt, so it sometimes seems the best way to respond to his eloquence.
EdP and Scampi on the other hand, deserve it.
@Hopi Sen:
Oh I see. As you were then…
I don’t see why Labour can’t just pass new laws introducing more congestion charging anyway. Never stopped ‘em before…
And back to the lack of honesty of the Government.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7780057.stm
Home Office and 10 Downing Street slammed!
More here:
http://www.24dash.com/news/Communities/2008-12-12-Knife-crime-figures-slammed-by-watchdog
183. “Home of the only National Galleries and Museums outside of London”
there are nationally important museums outside liverpool and london
Unemployment and job losses are now getting to scary levels, the avalanche expected for the new year has already started. All industries are affected. When are next figures out?
188. The bbc gave them headline hourly news bulletins with this news yesterday, how many people will notice the fiddle?
We really are back to the bad old days of spin for todays headlines, dont worry about next weeks attitude from the old days of this government.
184. No data about public attitudes - but this speech reflects what I think alot of policy makers would say about germnay, and until the last couple of weels I’d have xpected people like SeanT to nod heartily in assent.
http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/fisher/2006/fs061120.cfm
185 Are you sure Hopi? I suspect the two things SeanT really hates are
1) Cleverer, better looking men (modesty forbids us)
2) Being ignored.
Ergo, he’s usually very much at home here on pb.com.
I hate to criticise individual posters even though it seems to be a popular sport on here.
There is a great poster name of ‘ed’ tout-court and also an absolute horror named ‘edP’.I don’t see what he adds to anything.
I have never raised this point before because of the confusion regarding the two usernames.
When Mike Smithson was just a twinkle on betfair,coincidentally there was a vile creature who went by the name of ‘mike something’.
At the time Mike Smithson was by far the best contributor to the BF Politics forum so I never complained about ‘mike somebody’.
90.
Rod. Agree with much of what you say, but…
The beaches mostly aren’t in Liverpool (living in Crosby I thought you’d realised), there are galleries elsewhere that are National (Lady Lever + various other Tates).
6. “You might as well say that the result of the NE regional assembly (a similarly stunningly enormous defeat) was a predictor of the 2005 General election result because it showed oppostion to more government vs localism.”
It’s interesting you say that, because as I recall the very narrow ‘Yes’ vote in the Welsh Assembly referendum - held just four months after the Labour landslide in 1997 - was taken by some as a snub to the Blair government. Seems fairly silly in retrospect. Of course, Labour did go on to suffer a setback in the 1999 Assembly elections, but that was due to later events, ie. Tony Blair’s Mugabe-style tactics in thwarting the candidacy of Rhodri Morgan.
185 Ha ha. The pleasure’s all mine.
Looking at your Bio, I think you need to get out more, and interact with others of different political persuasions. Take off the blinkers - it might just open your mind up a little bit.
190. Not officially, there aren’t.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museums_Liverpool
@ Hopi Sen:
If it’s any consolation, I agree with you, not Sean.
The German economy is something that feels like it lost its way post-reunification, and has not been able to establish itself back in the public consciousness as ‘formidable’.
Germany’s no longer even in the top 20 countries of GDP per capita any more. (We’re 18th)
196. I said in the Metropolitan area.
185. But you still fail to answer the charge. Any right-winger even so much as hints at xenophobia and you lot are all over him like a rash yet your attempt to paint German critcs of Gordo by a crude hint at ‘rimless spectacles’ a la SS is allowed. I don’t think so.
re 189. Yes - the attack by Scholar looks very biting.
Clearly the No 10 spin wanted a “good” story so it dug out these unchecked figures.
Great to the UK Statistics Authority showing that it’s not a walk-over. This body was set up to deal with charges that Labour was fiddling numbers like crazy. Maybe they expected Scholar not to show his teeth.
The Manchester anti-CC vote may have been a rejection, not just of a new tax, but also of increased public spending (£3 billion). Both are factors that will play in the next general election.
Mike - where did the polls in Manchester go wrong?
155. But thats the point, it is deliberately vague and difficult to understand, full of caveats, and complex legalese which can be used to obfuscate about the intentions of the organisation.
188. Yes - a case of Labour takes the knife out!
“In an unusual step, Sir Michael Scholar, head of the UK Statistics Authority, said the figures released on Thursday were “selective”. “
198. “Interacting with others of different political persuasions” covers a multitude of sins, no?
199. Um http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_museum
Post reunification, German Car build quality went down. A potent symbol that things were not what they were.
We do not want to model the UK economy on Germany’s. They claimed they would escape the banking crisis just before…
I love the Xmas card - presumably the snow is fake - like everything else about the man.
@194:
I am both more handsomely dashing and brilliantly machiavellian than SeanT will ever be. I can prove it with diagrams.
And yet, I am no threat to him.
199. all i see in that article is a list of non-very-significant sounding local museums that happen to go by the name “national museums liverpool”.
can you explain how, for example, the national railway museum in york is not a national museum, but the “merseyside maritime museum” is?
thanks
@207:
It sounds to me like you’re in there, mate.
200. Martin - Sean’s point is that many people don’t really understand that. They think BMW, Mercedes end of story. I agree with Sean.
What the actuality is, is irrelevant (which I don’t contest). Public perception is what matters. The fact that Labour reacted so staunchly to the comments only strengthens that view.
209. They may have not escaped the banking crisis but their level of personal and public debt is very much lower than the UK.
202. Actually, my negative experiences with germans in rimless specatcles goes back to regular meetings at P&G HQ in Frankfurt.
Rimless specs, burgandy or green jackets over khaki trousers, leather attache cases and button down oxford shirts were compulsory. As was an insistince on changing Ariel and Bold packaging to say “futur”, which is what really rankled.
The other stuff is entirely in your own imagination, my old cock. I’m not responsible for that, I’m afraid.
211 The conventional wisdom is that if you need a diagram to prove how handsome or witty/devious you really are, your talents may be hidden elsewhere.
Can anyone answer me a betting question or tell me where to find out? What were the spreads on HoC seats imediately before the last GE?
re 204. I don’t have an answer to that. I think that the polling was quite old, certainly a few weeks, and the pollsters will say that the closer the fieldwork is to polling day the better.
But the scale of the discrepancy is enormous.
Liverpool
A place of worse than avearge crime
http://www.upmystreet.com/local/police-crime/figures/l/Liverpool.html
216. Nice try m8 but it won’t wash I’m afraid - you should have stuck to Daz.
207 & 213 The mistletoe is ready. I’ll be waiting next to the statue of Maggie Thatcher in the HoC. Think of a cross between Ann Widdecombe and Cherie Blair, in human form.
i mentioned yesterday that this “knife crime’s not all that bad really, we should please get a perspective on this” memo / mantra from number 10 had been repeated nearly verbatim on the Today programme. Now we get this… http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7780057.stm
maybe the BBC will learn not to parrott mandy’s poo releases one day…..
215 - You are probably right on personal debt but you may well be wrong on public debt which I think is around 65% of GDP compared with about 45% in the UK. There are a lot of measurement issues in play although they are not all one way (e.g. pension liabilities in Germany).
re 218. These were the spreads from the main firms just before the polls opened on May 5th 2005 -
220. Liverpool was where I lost my virginity in terms of being a victim of crime.
212. Why don’t you ask the DCMS?
http://www.culture.gov.uk/working_with_us/public_appointments/5095.aspx
220. You really don’t like the place do you.
I say again, are you a Manc?!
215. to the extent that you are right, you are providing evidence that there is no link between personal/public debt and banking crisis/recession. which i don’t think is your point of view.
227. ah, i see. an administrative technicality.
223 Oddly Mark Easton’s blog yesterday tore the figures apart on BBCi - pointing out they were not from the NSO, but resulted from a Home Office clerk ringing around police forces and putting them together (probably IMO for an internal powerpoint presentation that so impressed the ministers they ordered a Press Release).
216- But didn’t you know that Heinrich Himmler started the whole rimless glasses chic phenomenon? Like Coco Chanel and her Riviera suntan, the world took one look at dreamboat Heinrich and never looked back…
220. I think you’ll find most cities have “above average” crime…
227. Why are you so bothered Rod, you live in Sefton?
233. there is only one city where scally youths are likely to offer to “look after” your car in return for a fee.
228
I lived in Liverpool for 4 years.
My car was burgled twice. I had never had my car broken into before: or since.
We had petty crime at work: the worst I have ever seen.
Mancuniona? No I’m a Scot.
Liverpool is like Glasgow but much worse.
230. some tip, some technicality…
http://www.culture.gov.uk/working_with_us/public_appointments/5626.aspx
“The National Museums Liverpool (NML) is one of the world’s great museum services, with outstanding collections, buildings and galleries.”
“it is the only national museum service in England based wholly outside of London and is the only English national museum with universal collections.”
236. I apologise unreservedly for accusing you of coming from the rainy city.
Still, I think your hatred of Scouseland is a bit blinkered. I lived there for three years (in Kensington & Toxteth!) & nother ever happened to me.
Re 225: Thank you for your prompt response,Mr Smithson. This has disproved a theory I was working on! Always best to check the facts first.
Regards
Joe
234. As the song goes..
‘I was born in Liverpool down by the docks,
my religion was Catholic, occupation - hard knocks,
at stealing from lorries, I was adept,
and under old overcoats each night I slept…..’
232 - nah, I thought it was this bloke who kicked off the fashion trend!
http://www.nndb.com/people/898/000031805/leon_trotsky_90.jpg
Mind you, on the subject of rimless glasses, I think when even Michael Gove abandons them as a fashion error, that this is a sign that they should be removed from the earth entirely.
Oooh, I go away for a few minutes to register my exciting new website
http://www.thegenesissecret.com
and you’re gossipping about me. Cuh!
Yes, Martin, jsfl has it right - I’m talking about public perceptions of Germany, not the economic reality.
Given that our attitudes to Germany are still coloured by the 2nd World War I don’t think many people will have twigged that Germany has, arguably, underperformed economically since reunification.
When it comes to Germany, Brits still admire brilliant German cars, and they note that Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, and they maybe guess that the euro is run from Frankfurt for a reason.
That’s about as deeply as people think about the German economy, I reckon. i.e. with grudging admiration, if they think about it at all.
The idea that Joe Swindon is examining the data sets for German productivity since 1995 and thinking, ah, they shouldn’t have exchanged ostmarks at parity, now the Teutons are finished, is plainly ridiculous.
And that’s enuff about the krauts. Damn them and their rimless glasses, laughing at our poor prime minister.
Meanwhile this post shows what Labour supporters think:
swatantra on Fri Dec 12, 2008 at 03:34:43 PM GMT
Well turkeys don’t usually vote for Xmas. Its like asking someone would they mind paying more taxes. The question should never have been put to a referendum. The Council should just have gone ahead and done it. Same with Regional Government. Some questions should never go to the electorate to decide, because they will not make an informed judgment, but vote on prejudices.
http://www.labourhome.org/story/2008/12/12/75625/392
Well whatever the Toryd her seems to think,the story is now running as “Merkel comes round to Gordons point of view and supports fiscal stimulus”
74. Ellesmere Port is not Liverpool, it is accross the Mersey and in Cheshire
237. oh i see. only they think they are special.
241- I think I just became a Communist for a moment looking into those dreamy bespectacled eyes.
242 Brits admire Italian cars…
I think the debate about Liverpool here is similar to views held about Glasgow a few years ago when it became European City Of Culture or whatever title it was given.
However, despite the award and the improvements made in Glasgow, it still has some of the worst sink estates in Europe. Has Liverpool gor rid of all its worst estates or are these awards just the backslapping of mutual admiration of sycophantic self-promoting bureaucrats?
In my mind, it doesn’t matter what awards, museums or anything else it has, if their are sink estates kicking about the rest is pretty meaningless.
Do you really ask people to pay more money to go to work at the start of a world-wide recession? I think not.
However, I can’t see this having an important political effect. People are voting with their pay-packets or unemployment benefit. Strong Labour areas were the strongest against the proposal.
But being that all polls are good for Tories then I guess this one means that Pretty Boy Dave’s shower will be in power for the next hundred and fifty years. Or not.
Malcolm
249. most UK sink estates are in london
243 - not just Brown who abhors votes then?
246. They, being the Government…
And before you say it, it was a Tory government who bestowed the title, in 1986…
251. I’ve have little doubt that’s true and the same applies. The centre of London on a sunny Sunday afternoon is a marvellous place but too much of the rest of London is still awful.
240. I see. Just making sure that you’re not one of the hinterland people that claims they’re Scouse when they’re papably not!
245. Slow on the uptake Mr. P, I corrected that hours ago as a good Wirralian.
249. London has got some pretty dire areas - does that affect its status as one of the world’s major cultural centres?
Sir Michael Scholar head of ONS is live on Sky News now, he is blasting No10 and the Home Office, his comments are brutal. Basically saying that the stats hadn’t been error checked and they were selective and released a month early.
First the Garmans and now this. Ouch!!!
251 I’ve never been to a town that didn’t have a notorious estate/road/etc.
250 It did seem a touch ill timed.
A Christmas Message for all you Labour types out there:
http://rathergood.com/christmas
HAPPY FESTIVUS.
Listening To Michael Scholar it’s going to be really interesting to see how No 10 spin out of this.
252
Votes are fine if you get the answer you want.
As the Ulster Unionists used to say:”vote early,vote often”.
Labour Home is full of nutters who think talking down the pound is a treasonable offence and Osborne should be tried for treason. Of course, damaging the UK economy by crazy Ponzi borrowing is not.
It makes Conservative Home look: semi intelligent.
259 It’s the Broxtowe Cats!
256. It has plenty of good ones, too.
259 quite a good tune.
Meanwhile the £ has just fallen to its all time low aga…
etc etc
I sure that Will Self is the son of a Prof of Politics or Administration.
As for the German economy, don’t they have a trade surplus. I do wonder how much Mancurians pay in taxes on petrol? Why make working families poorer?
Gordon’s alternative Christmas card design
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2008/12/gordons-christmas-card.html
265 Very middle class sean. Agas and Rayburns.
243. There is a serious point to all that though. I doubt the Congestion charge in London would have made it through a referendum, Ken just forced it through and said, rather bravely that he’d take the political risk if it all went wrong.
Now, I don’t think any mayoral candidate would propose getting rid of it (the western extension was something of a useful proxy for both Ken an Boris in the last elections though)
Same goes for the smoking ban. I probably would have voted for allowing clubs to keep smoking if I’d had a vote in a referendum, but looking back Hewitt was right to push through a bigger change.
We shouldn’t always be mean to polticians who force through changes against popular opposition. Just sometimes, mainly when they disagree with me.
249. In my mind, it doesn’t matter what awards, museums or anything else it has, if their are sink estates kicking about the rest is pretty meaningless.
As Oscar Wilde said
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
263. you are never out of walking distance of a sink estate controlled by violent gangs in london.
267 The Tory poll lead. Genius!
I love the north / south divide, especially over Liverpool.
Incidfent: venue White Hart lane, last Home game for Spurs against Everton.
Everton supporters coaches at back of the stand, some of the coach load set fire to a Spurs hat in the coach, yes in the coach. Spurs supporters stopped and shouted many things!. Situation was quite dodgy for a five minutes, then it broke when Spurs fans shouted out, “Get a job” and started singing “Sign on, Sign on”.
Now I am a Spurs fan, lived for four years in early 70’s in Liverpool, time of the Miners strikes etc, the double 74 election, and enjoyed it immensely. Car was vandalised once, do not know why it was old and decrepid. Just had a half light broken, it was parked up the road from the College where I was doing evening classes.
Known much worse in London where I was raised.
More coverage of dodgy stat claims from UK Stats,
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2008/12/the-letter-that.html
I certainly think this shows the voters of Manchester are not prepared to be bribed or bullied into doing what the government wants.
Good on them, too.
And that should worry Labour as so much of their strategy is attempted bribes of the electors with their own money, or scare tactics about any dissent from their line.
157. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Self
Outlines Self’s backround. He must have picked up some interest in politics at home.
271. That rather depends on your definition of “walking distance”.
re C-charge…….the deal was for central gvt to grant £1.5billion, and a further £1.5 billion to be made available as a “loan” with repayments from the revenue from the C-charge.
Does this mean that Gvt has a “spare” £1.5 billion? So Gvt is “off the hook”, and has the opportunity to “save” this money.
269 “Referenda voting YES to tax rises” must be one of the worlds shortest books.
269. i think that’s unfair actually, the introduction of a C-charge was the main plank of Ken’s original campaign, wasn’t it? admittedly his opposition were so poor that he might have won if he had advocated baby-eating.
it was an extremely popular idea to start with. obviously since then
* downsides have become more obvious e.g. cost of implementation wipes out the tax take
* people have forgotten how appalling london traffic was before he charge
Question about the de Menezes inquest - could the jury actually have ignored the coroner’s directions (and returned a verdict of e.g. unlawful killing)? Would they have been in contempt so to do?
280 - Plus Ken’s dodgy means of making it a success, like the traffic light sequences changes, road works etc etc
272
The conservatives were never in the lead in 2004 IIRC. Nice try.,
277. having just read that Wikipedia article about Will Self, it’s definitely true statement, if not a useful one. I’m not sure why he walked to Heathrow, though.
Will Self is soooo UMC tho’… Hautest of the haut Bourgeouis. First up against the wall etc etc.
274. Link doesn’t work
“HAPPY FESTIVUS.”
On PB every day is the day of ‘airing the grievances’.
Anyone got an aluminium pole?
277. you would have to be pretty out of shape/physically disabled to disagree, surely?
273: No-one as cruel as a football fan
“Sign on, sign on, with hope in your heart, and you’ll nevvvver work again…..”
@ukpaul
I shall best you all at the trials of strength, for I AM MAN.
280. Yes it was a major part of his campaign, and he could totally claim democratic legitimacy for it - but I still think it would have been problematic in a referendum. See Edinburgh, for example.
281 Aaron - Don’t know the answer to that. But I believe an Open verdict means exactly what it says - the jury did not conclude he was NOT unlawfully killed. As I understand it, the Coroner’s direction was to the effect that there was no proof (beyond reasonable doubt) that he was unlawfully killed. An important distinction.
It’s suddenly occurred to me that the pound’s weakness must be terrible news for Ireland. Aren’t we their biggest market?
I remember reading somewhere that we absorbed 30-40% of Ireland’s exports - much of it food etc (which can be easily replaced by British alternatives).
That’s gotta be bad news for Cowan. Maybe he will lose that referendum…
290. i don’t agree, at the time i felt that he won on the back of it.
public opinion was totally different then, it was daring and a bit of an unknown quantity. and traffic was a big issue.
289 - For those who haven’t got a clue what we are talking about -
http://www.festivusbook.com/essentials
Remember folks, no hugging, no learning…
291. I think the coroner’s direction is likely to go down in history alongside the infamous summing up at the Thorpe trial…another disgraceful whitewash/stitch up.
294.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HQFLqMyo0fo
Courtesy of 24dash.com
Knife crime figures slammed by watchdog
Published by Jane Gething-Lewis for 24dash.com in Communities , Central Government
Friday 12th December 2008 - 3:03pm
The Government was severely rebuked by the statistics watchdog today over its use of knife crime figures.
Sir Michael Scholar, head of the UK Statistics Authority, said yesterday’s release of stabbing data by 10 Downing Street and the Home Office was “premature, irregular and selective”.
In a letter to Jeremy Heywood, Permanent Secretary at Number 10, he said figures on hospital admissions for stabbing injuries had not been properly checked and putting them out early was “corrosive of public trust”.
Sir Michael said in his letter that he was told officials or advisers in Number 10 “caused” the Home Office to issue the release.
The statisticians who produced the figures tried to block their release, which was in breach of the National Statistics Code of Practice, he said.
He said: “These statistics were not due for publication for some time, and had not therefore been through the regular process of checking and quality assurance.
“The statisticians who produced them, together with the National Statistician, tried unsuccessfully to prevent their premature, irregular and selective release.
“I hope you will agree that the publication of prematurely released and unchecked statistics is corrosive of public trust in official statistics, and incompatible with the high standards which we are all seeking to establish.
“I would be grateful for your comments, and for your assurance that there will be no repetition of this breach of the National Statistics Code of Practice.”
290 Hopi Sen. I read the article to which you posted the link earlier. “Is German Economic Decline Exaggerated or Inevitable”
Thanks, it was very interesting. (I declare an interest that I am very pro-German).
As a side point, it shows how dramatically the Labour party has changed, if you are typical of it. You are a (non-blinkered) Labour supporter, and you happily post an article such as that one. Yet, I cannot imagine the majority of Labour supporters c 1970-1994 doing anything other than roundly condemning anyone who dared to criticise the German Social-Economic model.
The full letter on the Stats abuse:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7780330.stm
And for those cultural philistines who have never heard of this country’s other “National Gallery”, or suppose it is one of “a list of non-very-significant sounding local museums” …
lern yerself a hedjucashion.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/collections/13c-16c/er1.aspx
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/collections/17c/rembrandt.aspx
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/collections/19c/yeames.aspx
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/collections/18c/stubbs.aspx
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/collections/19c/west.aspx
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/collections/17c/kneller.aspx
298. They lauded the German model when the UK was weak, then trashed it when the UK was strong, and now can’t seem to make up their minds whether to trash it or laud it (note the idiotic comments by the troll from Warwickshire last night).
298 - Well, we got sick of being lectured by the SPD too, y’know!
Interestingly the speech is by a democrat, though a very right wing one. I don’t agree with all of it, (the bit about state owned banks and free-er regulation on financial services has to give one a bit of pause today!) but I think it’s got a lot if good points to make.
And for those cultural philistines who have never heard of this country’s other “National Gallery”, or suppose it is one of “a list of non-very-significant sounding local museums” …
lern yerself a hedjucashion.
http://tinyurl.com/3z9h9p
http://tinyurl.com/5gz3en
http://tinyurl.com/5pv4yd
http://tinyurl.com/6okw8l
http://tinyurl.com/5uywet
http://tinyurl.com/6fh2zl
295 - I’m not so sure, runnymede. A verdict of Unlawful Killing would have been tantamount to finding that, beyond reasonable doubt, it was homicide. That is a very heavy burden of proof. Of course, you can argue that this should have been left to the jury; I don’t know enough about the law to say, and in any case it’s hard to comment on that without having sat through the inquest.
Bear in mind that a verdict of Unlawful Killing would only have been appropriate if there was proof, beyond reasonable doubt, that an identified individual had committed murder or manslaughter. It would be hard to identify any such person other than the officer who fired the shots; but to prove that he acted maliciously or negligently in this situation would surely be impossible, once you accept that he might honestly and reasonably have believed he and dozens of other people were about to be blown up.
I’m not defending the police handling of this, BTW. I think it was in many ways appalling, especially the failure to stop the suspect before he entered the Underground, and what looks like attempts at a cover-up afterwards. I’m also very critical of the general trend of the police apparently becoming more trigger-happy. But I’m also conscious that I wouldn’t want to be in the position of those officers.
Interesting Press Association headline on last night’s by-elections:
“LABOUR GAINS IN ENGLAND BUT SCOTS SWING TO SNP”
302 - Could Unlawful Killing not cover institutional homicide rather than pointing the finger at specific officers? (Genuinely don’t know the law here.)
299. An astonishingly stupid own-goal from the government. Caught with their hands in the statistical till.
They get a proper spanking from the BBC Home Affairs guy, here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/12/sharp_practice_on_knife_crime.html
304 As I understand it, no. But I’m not an expert.
302. The foul irony of this, is that the police have effectively got off on a technicality.
Lol - Labour just think the public are stupid:
—————
“Serious knife crimes against young people (homicide, attempted murder, GBH with intent) fell by 17% between June and October 2008 in the ten TKAP areas,” the Home Office press release proclaims.
Sounds good. But 17% actually equals, er… 17 incidents. In June, there were 98 serious offences. In October there were 81. In fact, the Home Office confirmed to me this afternoon that in September, there were only 68.
—————
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/12/sharp_practice_on_knife_crime.html
301. Actually the bit about the Landesbanks is all too true. The government guarantees and the haphazard way in which they were removed helped to persuade the State banks to engage in disastrous sprees - a lot of the banks that had to be bailed out were Landesbanks. It was a classic moral hazard problem.
I haven’t followed it closely enough to have any view on the verdict.
But the whole thing seems like a total farce. If the Jury thought it was Unlawful killing why should they be prevented from giving that verdict?
If the Judge has the right to rule out Unlawful killing, then why bother having a Jury in the first place?
The whole inquest seems like a classic British bureaucratic farce. Huge cost, huge amount of time spent and no proper conclusion at the end of it anyway.
A complete waste of time and nothing achieved other than the impression that the event has been looked into and time filled up on News bulletins.
I’m off to the Gym, but before I go, apparently Al franken got a couple of Early Chistmas presents today in the Minnesota senate race.
The State canvassing board - made up of 2 R’s 2 D’s and an Inipendent AIUI, just unaninmously ruled that the precinct where 133 votes were lost should use their original vote counts. That gives Franken back a 46 vote advantage he’d lost.
Then they unanimously ruled that counties should be asked to count all improperly rejected ballots. There seem to be over a 1000 of thes and the consensus seems to be that they would break for Franken, though I’m not sure why the absentee ballots should be so definitely assumed to favour him.
The Franken campaign said the other day that if you included the 133 lost votes, Franken led by 4 votes, out of c 2.8 million cast.
Colin Deans, a Glasgow SNP councillor who had faced disciplinary proceedings for writing an article claiming Irish immigrants were holding Scotland back, has defected to Labour, citing “bullying”. Wonder what kind of welcome he’ll receive.
310. Because the Coroner, who weighs issues of law, decided that there was no lawful reason to give such a verdict. In a criminal trial, the jury is responsible for matters of fact, the judge for matters of law. In cases where the Judge dismisses the case (there is no legal case to answer), the jury cannot convict - which is analogous to this case. In cases like Ponting - the judge can say “If he did this and he says he did, you must convict”, the jury can still refuse to convict. The jury decision on the facts is paramount.
304. I think you mean corporate manslaughter - replacing the common law offence of gross negligence manslaughter. I doubt whether the common law offence could be proven (most prosecutions failed) - it would still have been in effect. There are operational failures but given that the intent had been to kill a suspected terrorist the negligence would have had been quite spectacular to allow such an offence to be prosecuted. On the facts given, I am not surprised by the Coroner’s decision.
But didn’t Ken have the policy of CC as part of his electoral campaign? In which case the people of London also knew what and who they were voting for and the policy didn’t just mnaterialise out of thin air.
Still the Manchester CC is a good result and the many other Boroughs whose people commute to Manchester daily and didn’t get a vote because they were just outside the Greater Manchester area, will no doubt be breathing great sighs of relief.
315 - I’m not that surprised either, on the facts reported - I was just curious as to what the jury’s options were, in the face of what did look remarkably like an organised cover-up by the police with respect to the alleged shout of “Armed Police”.
314- If he hates England, I’m sure he will be most welcome in the Labour party.
316- I’m guessing that more people drive to the centre of Manchester to go to work than in London.
What I don’t understand is why the Police are claiming to have issued an “armed police” warning (which civilian witnesses denied, and the jury appears to have decided didn’t happen). There was an interesting piece on the BBC lunchtime news where they said that, according to the protocol for dealing with suspected suicide bombers, De Menezes should have been dealt with by a shot to the head - without warning - if the police had good reason to suspect he was a suicide bomber. So the police had no reason to give a warning, and in fact it broke their own protocol to do so. So why lie about it, if in fact that is what they have done?
315. yep sounds like the inquest was perfectly legit.
a very sad case, and it seems very unfair, but would it really be reasonable to return a verdict of unlawful killing? that would effectively be making a scapegoat out of the guy that pulled the trigger, which was his job.
in reality it was just a string of operational failures and a bit of paranoia. hopefully some of these will never happen again.
Yet more proof that though Cameron has excellent PR skills the rest of the Tory fold is somewhat lacking… what an idiotic thing to say!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/3724065/MP-Lynne-Featherstone-branded-dizzy-airhead-for-calling-fire-brigade-to-tackle-boiler.html
314. Isn’t the real story here that Labour were a bit stupid to accept him? There are good defections and bad defections, and I can’t believe Labour’s Catholic, Celtic-supporting voter base in Glasgow will be thrilled to see the party accepting someone like that with open arms. In a sense what would have been a minor embarrassment for the SNP has turned into an embarrassment shared between both parties.
320. Panic. Fear. Guilt. The same kind of emotions you or I would have in that situation. Either that or they forgot, which is very common in stressful sotuations. People’s memories are nowhere near as good as they’d like to think.
317 I don’t think any sensible person believes they did shout ‘armed police’, Aaron. Nor was the failure, imo, particularly shocking itself. It seems an absurd requirement, the kind dreamed up by some deskbound bureaucrat.
More troubling are the other manifest lies told by the police. One copper says the victim was identified, but the surveillance team cannot confirm this. The marksman again said his victim was positively identified before he shot him but this was contradicted by the colleague who was supposed to have done this. Finally, several police insisted that the suspect rose and approached them. We cannot be sure the Police are lying here but the fact that none of the public witnesses supported this gives reason for serious doubt.
The overwhelming impression from the inquest was that Police acted, not like trained professionals protecting the public, but like a bunch of cowboys, underqualified, out of control and out of their depth.
We can all form our own views as to whether this amounted to unlawful killing. My own is ‘probably not’, but I am mystified as to how the Judge saw fit to rule that out as a possible verdict.
His decision to do so gives reasonable people every justification for suspecting a cover up.
322. Don’t see the problem. Sorry.
326 the fact that the wibbler does is the worrying thing…
325 - Quite; in fact the “armed police” shout seems like a later confection insidiously designed to try and place further “blame” on de Menezes himself. Paul Waugh has it right:
“The officers may well have acted properly, if tragically, in shooting a man they genuinely believed to be a suicide bomber. But if they did lie about their shouted warning, how can anyone rely on the rest of their testimony?”
http://waugh.standard.co.uk/2008/12/why-the-de-mene.html
324. Someone probably said “Someone shouted ‘Armed police’”, everyone else probably didnt remember it being said, but thought “yeah we must have”. The police write their notes together. These men expected that there was a 50:50 chance they would die - the pressure, adrenaline pumping, the police who were at the scene have an excuse. What is totally unforgiveable is the slurs and baseless accusations made afterwards. I’d happily have senior officers cast on the beach for the disinformation spread in the aftermath. But as for the inquest, it’s probably the right decision.
@326. It annoys and patronizes female voters, which, if you hadn’t noticed, are a rather important demographic? If you want to make a point (which I think is an unfair one anyway) about what justifies a 999 call, why needlessly make a sexist point of it? Why bring up “a man wouldn’t have done this” when you’re a politician?
I disagree with the premise anyway - how are you meant to know what an airlock sounds like when they only occur infrequently? If you genuinely believe your boiler is on the brink of exploding (maybe because you’re not a plumber) then calling 999 is the right thing to do.
318. I’ve seen no mention of him hating England. It was the Irish with whom he appeared to have problems.
323. Well, exactly. Presumably Steven Purcell reckoned it would be a coup, but I can’t imagine his colleagues will be particularly thrilled. Labour would’ve benefited more from taking the moral high ground and loudly rebuffing his advances - especially since the arithmetic on Glasgow City Council is irrelevant, all decisions being made by the executive.
330 wibbler - Let me give you a free piece of very practical advice: If you genuinely believe your boiler is on the brink of exploding, switch it off. Irrespective of sex.
330. Coleman’s defence is risible. It’s like saying “I’m not racist - it’s just that I’ve noticed that black people are somewhat inferior”.
329
What is wrong - and unjust - is that the reason for the judges direction is that if the jury had returned a verdict of unlawful killing then the only two people who could have been tried for the crime were those who pulled the triggers. That seems crazy to me when the real criminals are those who ran such a chaotic and unprofessional outfit as described in the court case.
In spite of the questions over their declaration of who they were I attach no blame to the fire arms officers on the ground but a great deal to the morons running the operation who should at least be guilty of manslaughter on the grounds of negligence.
330. If the voters are annoyed, they can vote him out. This MP has tried to push him out because she’s offended. How ridiculous.
Besides, it’s not sexist. It’s true. A man would be very unlikely to call 999 if his boiler was banging. Why should we have to watch our words so adolescents don’t get offended? I’m sick of the idea that it is some legal right of people not to be offended. ‘Sticks and stones may break my bones…’
333. He did not say women are inferior.
331- I’ve no idea if he hates England or not. I was just posting one of my usual “Labour hates England” posts.
332
No its not, its like saying dont call 999 if you’ve got an airlock in the boiler.
328 Oh, the police account was so riddled with implausibility and contradiction that they just lost all credibility. That in itself makes it hard to understand how the ‘unlawful killing’ verdict could be safely ruled out.
The Police have yet to answer many questions the Public are entitled to ask. The Judge too now has some questions to answer.
336. He said that she made a stupid mistake that she wouldn’t have made if she was a man. In what way does that not imply that women are inferior?
By the way, your previous post suggesting that Coleman is just stating the obvious that a man would never have done this is also wrong. If you’ve never met a panicky man in your life you need to get out more.
335. This should be good. How is making sweeping judgements based on gender not sexism precisely?
No she should not have called the fire brigade. But why that Conservative bloke felt the need to put it down to her being a woman I’ve no idea. It’s idiotic on several levels, not least the political one.
“Can this man impede the Downing Street spinners?” - new thread
333. Oh fer f*ck’s sake you pompous old knob.
thomas has it right at 335. It’s a slightly clumsy remark that nonetheless conceals a truth. I know a few people who might be so ditzy as to call 999 for an ominous boiler sound, none of them possess cullions.
Calling for the man to be sacked like he’s some misogynist version of Hitler is just ludicrous, and makes you look a berk. Again.
Grow up.
If the voters find his remarks so howlingly offensive they are free to kick him out, via the ballot box.
332 - What if you’re not sure of the sex of your boiler?
I wonder why the government released those ‘irregular and selective’ knife crime stats ‘prematurely’, to use the words of the head of the UK Statistics Authority?
Couldn’t have been an attempt to deflect attention from the spat with the German finance minister yesterday, could it?
And to think the Labour posters on here really wonder why us Tories interpret every government pronouncement (on the Damian Green affair, economic policy/statistics) with cynicism and suspicion.
This mob is rotten to the core. So much for Brown promising a new post-spin era of honesty. Their mendacity knows no bounds … but that’s OK because (in Gordon’s deluded mind) anything is justified for the greater good of keeping him in power and the Tories out.
334 Richard
You and I were not at the inquest and can only judge from reported evidence, so I don’t think either of us can say definitively what verict should have been reached. In principle however, I see no reason why the the man at the sharp end, the marksman, should not be susceptible to a manslughter charge if he conducted himself unreasonably or negligently. In principle, a juror might reasonably infer that in the absence of clear identification, a warning, or any obvious threat from the suspect, shooting him was excessive, unreasonable, and unjustified.
The Judge blocked the Jury from making such an inference. I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation as to why he did that and suspect it is because there isn’t one.
332 Richard Nabavi. “Let me give you a free piece of very practical advice: If you genuinely believe your boiler is on the brink of exploding, switch it off. Irrespective of sex.”
100% correct Richard. I’m with Coleman on this. Any rational person, male or female, would do as you suggested. But not Ms “Me Me Me Me Me” Featherstone.
334 Btw Richard, I should add that all your other comments about the incompetence of the people who put the marksman in that situation go without saying.
343. Nice to see you wading in to defend sexism seanT.
344 Morus “What if you’re not sure of the sex of your boiler?”
Then you should call a heating engineer. Make sure he (or she!)is CORGI registered.
Predicted the C-charge result and think it’s simple - people won’t vote to pay more in the middle of a crisis. It was a proposal for good times,voted on in bad times.
The Notts by-election was good news as it shows the decline of the anti-Labour tactical vote - there has been a big surge of Independents and LibDems in recent years as people tried to find a way to kick us without voting Tory. As the Indies have proved of mixed quality, the trend is dwindling.
204, 219 Way out here on the Pacfic Rim of North American, in Washington State, Oregon & California (in order of true importance!) we have considerable experience voting on statewide initiatives and referenda, along with a plethora of local ballot measures such as tax levies and bonds. So over the years we’ve had a lot of polling on questions. Here are some major points:
1. When it comes to measures, the Yes side generally needs to be ahead by at least 5% prior to election, because there usually considerable slippage in support.
2. This is especially true with tax measures.
3. One key reason for 1 & 2, is that, when in doubt, voters tend to vote No.
4. There is often a strong partisan component to votes on measures; for example, Democrats more likely to support raising taxes than Republicans.
5. BUT the very fact that there is no official party label to a measure means that significant number of partisan votes will shift, especially if there are strong divergences in voter perceptions and views based on demographics. For example, in WA State in 1999 when we voted on a major reduction of what were very high auto license tax, many upscale moderate Republicans voted against the reduction (believing the government really needed the money, which wasn’t that big a hit to their bank balance) whereas many lunch bucket, blue collar Democrats voted for the reduction (because car & truck tabs were a much bigger bite out of their bottom line). IF this logic can be translated at least partly to UK reality, then would make sense if traditional working class Labour voters in Merseyside, Greater Manchester or many other parts of England, Scotland & Wales voted their pocketbooks rather than the party manifesto.
6. In the case of major transportation measures, it is ESSENTIAL to give voters specifics as to projects and purposes the extra dollars extracted from them will fund. Voter may support a theoretical proposition, but are unlikely to vote for it IF it has a price tag attached to them personally.
7. Also with respect to transporation questions, its not unheard of for voters to reject a measure the first time, then pass it the next time. What can happen in the interval, is that a) the problem becomes worse; and 2) the proposal becomes better. That is, the Yes side gets more specific, trimes the fat and otherwise shows they have a clue, while at the same time more and more voters become willing to bite the bullet (or bullet train as the case may be!)
Obviously the voters of Manchester didn’t understand the question and must be given the chance to vote again (until they give the right answer)
©EUCCP
I think there are two main components to the vote - 1) voters could see there would be more tax but vague promises of better services so they opted to protect their pockets; 2) it was anti-establishment at a time when they feel let down and feel they were being pushed to vote a certain way.