Does demonising the Tories work any more?
May 28th, 2006
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The week when Labour stopped being General Election favourite
A hugely significant betting moment during the week when, almost certainly for the first time since 1992, the Tories became favourite to win the following General Election. The Betfair “Labour winning most sears” price is 1.02/1 compared with 0.98/1 for the Toires.
What’s interesting is that this change has taken such a long time coming. Throughout the past few months of cash for peerages, Tessa Jowell, and the foreign prisoners affair punters have stayed with Labour even though the polls were not encouraging.
Even that Populus 8% Tory lead three weeks with its associated 10% margin if Gordon Brown was leader did not push Labour behind the Tories in the most seats’ markets. The final straw during the week the influential ICM poll in the Guardian and the May YouGov survey in the Telegraph.
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What I think’s happening is that the Labour strategy for the past decade and a half of demonising the Tories no longer resonates. Blair-Brown’s central campaign rhetoric brilliantly executed over three General Elections won’t carry over to a fourth.
What can Labour say to get the voters to like them again when just “not being the Tories” is no longer enough?
The main hope for the party is that the departure of Blair will allow Labour to reinvigorate itself and create a different “offer” to put to the country. The problem is that after fifteen years of of saying “we are the only way to stop the Tories” there appears to have been precious little thinking on what replaces that. The recent “Dave the “Chameleon” campaign showed that they have yet to come up with new ideas.
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A possible Tory weakness for Labour to exploit might be that David Cameron will continue to be sloppy with his public outbursts
The Tory leader is supposed to be a PR expert and should know that you don’t start making public statements without checking out all the angles and facts. Thus the onslaught against the retail group BHS on sexy children’s clothing looked ridiculous when it was revealed that the company had stopped selling the range three years earlier.
Tory and Labour strategists should listen to the first ten minutes of the latest edition of Radio 4’s “The Now Show” describing how a web-site the Tory leader recommended was found to be packed with porn. It makes amusing listening - but there’s a serious point. An opposition leader should not have allowed that to happen and he’s diminishing himself. One day, when Labour are not in self-destruct mode, this could be highly damaging.
We are possibly four years away from the next General Election, a lot can happen between now and then, and a “John Major” type Labour leadership could allow a departure from the past. It’s going to be a big challenge.
Mike Smithson
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But how are they supposed to not self destruct when they are still telling themselves, within, that they’re not doing too badly?
Mike,
Cameron’s speech stated that the clothing line had been withdrawn. His point was that it had made it through all the checks to being put on sale.
It was only withdrawn after a complaint from a member of the public. It should never have reached BHS’s shelves and they can’t get away from the fact that it got passed by several layers of management, buyers etc.
The speech on children’s clothing went down well with the country at large. No gaffes there.
Please note that I’ve changed the pictures on the story - the 2005 Labour General Election posters make the point better.
The Cameron quote on children’s clothing:
“I remember a couple of years ago BHS had to withdraw a range of underwear for kids after some mums objected to the fact that padded bras and sexy knickers for the under tens were on sale.
BHS’s initial reaction was to claim that the underwear was “harmless fun.”
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/conservatives/story/0,,1771086,00.html
Can you please clarify once and for all that quote. As shown by previous posters, the quote was refering to a time several years ago when the clothes were stocked and not to the present. Philip Green then responded to an inacurate quote when he said the DC should get his facts straight.
#5 it is a bit of an urban myth. Cameron was referring to the very fact that a few years back, this revolting range “Little Miss Naughty” with padded bras for 7 year olds even *had* to be withdrawn and then only after a complaint, which complaint was initially brushed aside by BHS.
“… central campaign rhetoric brilliantly executed over three General Elections won’t carry over to a fourth.”
That is almost certainly true in England, especially central and southern England, but I seriously doubt that it is true (yet) in Scotland or Wales. The Scottish National Party have done very, very well with the “we are the only way to stop the Tories” campaign tactic in several key areas, most notably Perthshire’s 2 seats; Angus; Banff & Buchan; Moray and (previously) western Dumfries and Galloway. The Labour Party and Lib Dems also use it tremendously successfully in certain key patches too; the ones which spring to mind being East Renfrewshire; Stirling; Argyll & Bute; Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine; Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk; and Edinburgh West (most of which, if they were located in England, would be very likely to be rock-solid Tory territory).
But even although this “we are the only way to stop the Tories” may well work for a few more additional years, north and west of the borders, it will not last forever, because nothing ever does.
This is an amusing aside (from the Telegraph). Scroll down to the current party leaders
Re 8 Now Ming really is finished
8/9 - Brilliant! Bloody Merkins.
I think Cameron’s point about the childrens’ underwear was a reasonable one. OTOH, the Liberal Conservative leaflet in Dunfermline was a definite gaffe - intellectually dishonest and obviously so. I think the comments about WH Smith selling chocolate oranges were pretty silly too.
Returning to yesterday’s topic, does anyone think that the raft of articles about the deputy leadership in today’s papers suggest that there may have been more to “Red Sky” than meets the eye?
Great radio show, Mike. Thanks.
Cameron has three negatives developing
1. shooting from the hip (website, bhs)
2. being an old etonian bully
3. being a bit cranky.
I don’t think these dominate his public image.
But I agree with Mike that there is a chance that they could.
It looks increasingly likely that Prescott will step down soon. I feel this strengthens Brown.
Would those who may run for the leadership, when the time comes, throw their hat into the ring for the deputy leadership? If some of Benn, Johnson, Reid, Milliband, Milburn - and of course Harman - ran for the deputyship, then any winner would be unlikely to run for the leadership next year. And any loser would be damaged goods too, and therefore unlikely to run.
There are therefore two possible scenarios:-
1) Harman get deputyship without much serious opposition as most heavyweights (I really can’t see Milliband as a heavy, but never mind). Harman is a Brownite, so this would benefit Brown for the leadership. Suppose Straw may run against Harman, but he would lose.
2) There is a big bloody battle for the deputyship, but Gordon gets the leadership, probably next year, almost uncontested.
As a non-Labour supporter, I think that Harman is the right deputy for Labour, but remain unconvinced of the broad appeal of any of the possible leadership contenders except for Benn or Johnson.
So, in summary, either way, an early bath for Prescott benefits Brown.
14 - point 1 should say “as most heavyweights (I really can’t see Milliband as a heavy, but never mind) choose not to run, and wait for the leadership battle.”
Does demonising the Tories work? Obviously less so, as time goes on (the whole ‘You failed to do this when you were in government’ impresses people less the longer the current government has been in power, almost ten years now). The polls do, however, show that while people think Cameron is different, they think his party hasn’t changed.
So Brown’s strategy of targetting Cameron, and making personal attacks on him (as in the chameleon advert), may be a mistake. A better line might be ‘Nice chap, shame about his party’.
As for Cameron’s Desert Island Discs choices, not bad. A good choice from The Smiths, but not so good from The Killers. He chose ‘All These Things That I’ve Done’ (is this some cry for help when the chorus goes ‘Ye-h-e, come on, you’ve gotta help me out’?) when he should have chosen ‘Mr Brightside’ or ‘Somebody Told Me’.
[14] SBS, does As a non-Labour supporter, I think that Harman is the right deputy for Labour mean that she’s the one Labour’s opponents are hoping for & therefore the wrong choice for that Party’s supporters to make?
Re. 13, indeed. The Sky News interview he did a few weeks ago, where he got so tetchy and flustered that he asked if they could do the interview again (all because the interviewer made a mild comment about his being seen as obsessed with changing his party) would have been used far more against Major, Hague, IDS or Howard.
The fact that it was hardly mentioned by other channels (OK, they don’t want to advertise Sky News, but that didn’t stop them using Sky News’ footage of the Prescott punch), on the other hand, probably shows that Cameron has what Napoleon wanted in his Generals, ie luck.
Unfortunately for Labour, it’s all too easy to see the 09 GE becoming a UK version of the 2000 US election, where Brown is portrayed (as was Gore) by a hostile media as a stiff (even moody) politician who tries too hard and has a tin ear, whereas the right-wing candidate (Cameron, as with Bush) is treated as an easy-going guy who doesn’t care what other people think of them. Brown often doesn’t help himself, just as Gore didn’t help himself (not least in volunteering, because he thought it made him look ‘cool’, the bizarre revelation that, if any of his family go to the loo while watching a video, he rewinds it not to the moment they’ve missed, but right back to the start), but the media so far have given Cameron the easy ride that the US media gave Bush in 2000, where frat boy arrogance was mistaken for ease.
Cameron does his best to reinforce that line of attack on DOD where he remarks that he wonders if PMQs with Brown will have the light and shade and humour that his encounters with Blair do. In other words, however gently, he’s reinforcing the image (or the narrative) the Tories want to build of Brown as a dour assassin.
If you want to listen, it’s on Radio 4 at 11.15.
Maybe frat boy arrogance is a bit harsh (to Cameron, certainly not to Bush) - I really mean the sort of easy-going confidence that often comes from a public school education (particularly at Eton).
17 - no, I mean I think she will be a vote winner for Labour, or at least less of a vote loser than any other deputy.
Mike – “Does demonising the Tories work any more?”
In the main, NO.
After a party has been in power for nearly a decade, it needs more than the fear of a return to the “bad old days” to maintain the support of the electorate.
Furthermore continuingly resorting to the “things are better now than in ‘97” doesn’t resonate with voters, because most simply aren’t interested in how things stack up now compared to their aspirations a decade ago because those aspirations are no longer relevant to their lives and they have new aspirations that are relevant.
Constantly referring to the events of a decade ago, can only make the Labour party and its polices seem all the more irrelevant. As I say a party has to remain current and that is not achieved by harping on about events, however defining of the political landscape, over a decade ago.
Frankly, I was amazed during the ’05 and ’04 elections by the degree to which the Labour party based its entire campaign upon the theme that “we might not be so good, but watch out because it’s us or a return to the Mayor-Lamont twilight zone”… you need more than that to appeal to voters.
Ideally a party has to articulate an optimistic, practical prescription for the country’s ills as well as discrediting the prescription offered by/ or character of the opposition parties… Labour has increasingly had to rely on the latter and it does not work in the long term IMHO.
Something which the Conservative Party must not allow to happen, if they should win power, is to become set in a perception of the political realities they must remain current, something which historically they where able to do with a great deal more success than the Labour party, but failed to do during either the 1960’s or 1990’s… at least that would be my assessment.
8 A pity about the CIA fact book as it has usually been a reliable source.
But it is sad for poor old Walter. He really has made a mark, hasn’t he?
18. “Cameron does his best to reinforce that line of attack on DOD where he remarks that he wonders if PMQs with Brown will have the light and shade and humour that his encounters with Blair do. In other words, however gently, he’s reinforcing the image (or the narrative) the Tories want to build of Brown as a dour assassin.”
I thought he didn’t want to use “punch and judy” again….but it seems he (and Gideon) spend lots of time attacking Gordon’s personality.
YE GODS MIKE……… SUNDAY MORNING !!!!!!!!!!
And what do we have !! bursting from our screens but a smirking frontal of the old Folkestone Neck Chomper.
……………………………….
However all is not lost. Those of the non blue hue ?!?! … will be pleased to hear that the latest poll from PBs in house pollster - ARSE has shown a dramatic shift away from the Tories !!. The cause is clear - Those doyens of the Tory party Neil and Christine Hamilton’s release of their England World Cup song.
Support for the Tories has collapsed in England, but risen dramatically in Scotland !!. Fat Les Soames who’s eaten all the pies and well into his fourth vindaloo was said to be isolated as Cameroon beats the 3 lions on his chest. Bill Cash’s own tune (sung to ten Green Bottles) called Ten German Bombers was said to be selling especially well in Barking.
Anonymous Random Selection of Electors Poll - 28th May 2006 :
How will you vote if the Hamilton’s World Cup Record is Released :
Labour - 34%
Con - 6% (57% in Scotland)
Lib Dem - 20%
Shrek’s Toe Party 7%
Alan Hansen Defence Party - 5%
Gary Lineker Smarmy Party - 4%
Sven Goran’s Virgin Party - 3%
Scottish National Elephant Polo Party - 21%
……………………………………….
Ally’s Tartan Army Anyone ?
Oh Costa Rica .. oh Costa Rica .. we love you !!
I hope when Blair and Bush are gone, Labour can attack full on the whole “Compassionate Conservative” and the “small government works” lines /lies.
e.g. Just ask the good citizens of New Orleans if it worked for them.
or Do we need a british Bush in David W Cameron?
Overall, The impact of a new face in the white house will be very interestingand important aspect of 2009 GE.
Maybe Cameron can be boxed into a corner over the contradictions between his environmental approach and the traditional Tory links to big business.
I noticed in the Sunday Times that Martin Salter MP has called on Prescott to go.
I now fully expect Prescott to stay.
Good bit in the Telegraph today on Brown’s plans for dealing with Cameron
Those closest to Mr Brown are desperate to “get at” the Tory leader, but will be let fully off the leash only once Mr Blair departs (or at least sets out a timetable for his exit).
When they are, every weapon will be used. Nothing will be off-limits - Mr Cameron’s Eton education, his comparative lack of political experience, his stint as a PR man for a television company and his role as a Treasury special adviser on Black Wednesday will all be attacked.
It is a brutal technique that has already been used, highly effectively, against Cabinet colleagues who have drawn the Chancellor’s ire, most notably Alan Milburn, the former health secretary controversially chosen by the Prime Minister ahead of Mr Brown to mastermind Labour’s election strategy last year.
Will it work? With every passing week, Mr Cameron appears to grow in stature and confidence. “Class-war” attacks and negative campaigning are tactics that Mr Brown has in mind: the risk is that he will appear chippy and defensive against a candidate for Prime Minister who increasingly seems capable of tapping into public mood and sentiment.
“Vote for us, cos we’re not the evil Tories” - that’s always been pretty pathetic and I cannot conceive of Labour going into a fourth successive GE campaign using that. Which leaves them with, err, well I’m sure they’ll think of something.
Labour could well use the 1992 Tory campaign as a template. Somehow attach a price tag and risk to Cameron. The rest will be easy.
Should also undermine the philosphical background to his approach (i.e. compassionate conservatism). Should not be hard. His closeness to Blair may turn out to be a mistake.
28 - Andy D
Exactly, I would have thought Labour would try and employ a more optimistic tone and try and trumpet their “achievements” in office and proposals for the further in relation to the aspirations and expectations of voters…
…But Labour attempts at this sort of thing with Milburn’s “forward offer” in early 2005 and Brown “I’m the best chancellor –EVER” campaign in Dunfermline have all fallen pretty flat.
Why is this? my suggestion is Labour have simply left it far to late to adopt optimistic, “look at our achievements” narratives and relied far to much on simple demonising of the opposition, which has invited voters to perceive the Labour party not as a “positive choice” but simply as the “lesser of two evils”.
26. I fully expect he’ll fully back him next week. Same thing for Angela Eagle (who’s in The Times too).
Labour’s problem is that they have resided over nine years of failure and they haven’t got a positive message to sell anymore.
“We are not Tory” “Tory’s were worse than us” or “Cameron is a Chameleon” won’t work. New Labour is finished.
32 Printz. When do you expect Galloway to remove himself from the darkened room after the “Assasination” comments?
A party having problems
http://www.sundayherald.com/55972
http://www.sundayherald.com/55985
33. Uhm, Jack, Gorgeous George will never be in a darkened room, but always in the spotlight. Maybe you’ve mistaked him for someone else. it’s Oona King who said she like to lie in a dark room to relax from Westminster stress.
34. I’m almost sorry for them.
29 - Somehow i don’t forsee Cameron publishing a shadow budget, and whatever people think of the Conservatives I doubt you will find very few who think that they will tax them more than Labour.
30 - Anyone remember John Major in 1997 and “it’s now time to move to the next stage of Conservative prosperity”?
testing post
I seem to be getting spammed when posting a link to website stating there are going to be two Conservative candidates in the Bromley by-election
14
Unfortunately I don’t think Prescott will step down ,his ego, luxury life style and current sinecure mitigate against that happening.
More importantly Blair knows that if Prescott goes, then an election for his replacement will follow and their will be a flood of calls to hold both elections (PM & DPM) together,which with the current shambles in the government will be impossible to resist.
Meanwhile the ever generous taxpayer has to sit back and pay for the Prescott nonesense.
33 - Jack, I salute Galloway’s strength, courage and infatigability.
Blair should have apologised and resigned the day the world discovered intelligence had been “sexed up,” and he should have declared that the decision to attack Iraq was based on that manipulated information and the British people were not party to his war.
By staying he has left Britain in great danger. I doubt if 7/7 would have happened if he had done the decent thing. Why would it? In my opinion, by turning UK into a target Blair has let people in Britain die because of his vanity.
A moral Question: What is better? For there to be another 7/7 with many people who had nothing to do with Iraq being killed and injured or for Blair to go one way or the other?
39 - Mark it’s a gut called Chad Noble who IIRC was behind a group called ‘Imagine’. They claimed to be a sort of hybrid of both Labour and Conservative - believing in a hand out and a hand up amongst other things. So far as I know he has nothing to do with the Conservative party itself.
42 - Sorry should be a ‘guy’ not a ‘gut’.
40 - Deputy Prime Minister is not an elected position. I’m sure that Prescott will be removed from that position (whether he is replaced or not) whoever becomes the new leader. They will feel under no obligation to retain him.
41 - “Why would it?”
Possibly because Al Qaeda aren’t interested in distinguishing between a country and its leaders? To suggest that 7/7 would not have happened had Blair stepped down a year ago is a bit far-fetched. 9/11 didn’t happen because George Bush was President.
45(con) - I don’t think that Galloway’s suggestion was that a British subject should assassinate Blair to prevent further atrocities was quite was he was implying anyway!
41 Printz. “Blair to go one way or the other?”
If you mean assasinated Printz say so !
The moral question is clear. Britain will not be cowed by Islamic or any other form of terrorism. Whether you like it or not Blair is the democratically elected Prime Minister of the nation.
47. “Whether you like it or not Blair is the democratically elected Prime Minister of the nation. ”
Jack, you democratically elected MPs, not Tony Blair as PM. You live in a parliamentary system.
47/48…cont…
your implication of him being democratically elected would mean the country should be back to polls that if he stands down before the end of the term.
http://www.imagineparty.org/
50. ok, it’s a link to Chad Noble and bromley.
49 Andrea. No. The Queen takes advice and then selects the PM from the majority party as when Eden replaced Churchill, Home replaced MacMillan and Major for Thatcher.
52. Jack, I wasn’t question that, I was questioning your assertion of the PM being “democratically elected”. It’s the MPs who are democratically elected. It’s indirectly elected, but not directly by the people, because just the people of Sedgefield voted for him
53 - You can be indirectly democratically elected
53 Andrea. The voters are well aware of the implications of voting for a party in each seat and who will be PM accordingly. That’s why pollsters include questions on “Who will be the best PM?”
55 - you seem to be contradicting yourself somewhat Jack
56 alex. Well there’s the unwritten constitution for you. We all know how the system works with its’ implied nods and winks. Rather quant but it seems to work.
45/47 -
7/7 were home grown terrorists. The video of the leader said it was about Iraq. Do you reduce terrorism by provoking and angering millions of people and creating a recruiting sergeant for more terrorism, as our own security services warned, as people like Kenneth Clarke warned in the Commons, and was blatently obvious?
Let’s not forget, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It was all about what Bush wanted. 100,000 Iraqis are dead and it has become a bloodbath. Every day in Iraq is like 7/7. Babies are deformed because of the tons of depleted uranium, children have had their limbs blasted off because of the cluster bombs, widows have been created by the hundreds at a time.
To millions Bush and Blair are hated as if they were Hitler. If you were an Iraqi whose son was killed by an American missile, how angry would you be? Would you want revenge?
Here in our cosy world in Britain, travelling around minding our own business, would you prefer a bomb to go off and kill your family and dozens of other families or one bullet aimed at their hate figure?
That is not what Galloway has asked, but what moral justification can be made for killing innocent people wherever they are, whether they are in Britain or Iraq. What he is saying is if you can justify killing 100,000, others may justify killing one. Why is that so shocking. He is just stating the obvious.
For me the only thing Labour can do now is elect a likeable leader and hope he/she can pull off a John Major like 1992 victory. I can’t see any means by which Labour will be able to effectively attack Cameron, all the ideas I have heard for attacking Cameron so far are ones that may go down well in the political anorak community, but will have no effect with the public whatsoever. Cameron has killed the ‘anything but the Tories’ mantra that has held Labour in good stead for the last decade. Labour are making all the same errors with Cameron the the Tories used to when Blair first came on the scene.
To be honest there is still a lot to be said for “not being tory” - to this day being the main rival to the tories guarantees millions of votes! However to win the main thrust of the article has to be accepted. Attacking the record of previous tory adminstrations needs to be downgraded to a background theme and not part of the main theme or imagery of labour’s next campaign.
The party needs to develop an effective demolition of the tories as they are today, and not what they were in the past. Accept ben’s point as well that Labour also needs to base its positive appeal on what it offers now, and not focus everything through the prism of 1997.
Labour will do better under brown because blair is hamstrung in his attacks on cameron. in many ways the most obvious attacks on cameron also ring true of blair…as ever it’s blair the roadblock to labour’s recovery…this is why imho he must stand down in 2007 and not be allowed to contemplate hanging on for any longer.
re 59. Someone likeable like John Denham for Labour leader? Respected enough among the PLP and party membership, credible and apparently was a certainty for cabinet before resigning over Iraq, and very normal. The fact that he’s not really well known by the public could make him seem fresh. Has been working the TV studios a lot recently.
58 - that’s completely irrelevant to my point. Whether you like it or not, and the extent to which you think Blair is responsible or not, 7/7 was an attack on the UK, not a proxy to attack Blair. The terrorist threat will not go just because Blair does. So you present a completely false choice.
55. Jack, I know it, but you talked like it was an absolute truth and it wasn’t.
Labour was led by McIntosh in 1981 GLC election and won it, the next Red Ken ousted him.
David Aaronovitch is a Blair’s supporter and so he said he couldn’t vote for the Labour candidate in his constituency
53, 56, A&A—you guys are in pedantic (teasing) mode this morning, aren’t you? ;). But everyone knows what Jack was rightly inquiring of Printz, and the absence of any reply from that quarter so far speaks volumes.
An article in the Times today illustrates what for me could be an area of growing controversy as the next GE approaches - the economic polarisation of the UK between highly state-dependent northern/celtic regions and a more dynamic private sector-driven south & midlands.
This polarisation offers both an opportunity and a challenge for DC’s Tories. there could well be a lot of votes in the south to be won by highlighting the massive drain of cash involved in subsidising poorer regions. At the same time, seats need to be won in the subsidised regions too. A careful balancing act required…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2200150,00.html
61,As a Labour voter resident in Bournemouth East,it would be nice to see the MP for Southampton Itchen raise to prominence-I certainly foresee John Denham being in a Brown cabinet
65,Having some West Midlands roots,and having studied at Wolverhampton Polytechnic in the 1990-1991 academic year,I still recall the deprivation,despair that inner city areas of the Midlands/North suffered-I presume David Cameron will tread very carefully,as any hint of harshnes would rapidly see him tarred as another right-wing,slash and burn services etc etc-so he will have to be incredibly careful-who will be the next Howard Flight?;)
62 - You can make that argument. But I believe if Blair had resigned at the right time and apologised for presenting a false case for war he would have substantially reduced the terror threat.
By staying on, accepting no fault and then the people voting for him again has not helped. It has made it look as if the British people agree with what what is perceived by many as a war on Islam. Instead of Blair being the focus of hate so to, to a greater extent than before, are the British people.
We would only know for sure by interviewing terrorists or would-be terrorists. In every case the psychology and motivation of the terrorists will vary. I personally do not believe 7/7 would have happened if Blair had done the decent thing at the right time.
In my opinion he has consistently put his own vanity before people’s lives, as seen last week flying to Iraq for a photo opportunity, that would have been provocative to all those that hate the invasion and allied occupation.
More lives might have been lost, but does Blair care? He cares about himself. Not one person around Blair lost their job over the dodgy dossiers. In fact some of them were promoted, while others were losing their lives. The autioning of the Hutton report shows an utter contempt for those that have died.
Blair’s comment on 7/7 that it had nothing to do with Iraq was yet another fabrication. In my view Blair lives in a fantasy world, so lost in spin and lies he has lost his grip on reality.
Of course 7/7 was about Iraq as the video said. Blair created the circumstances in which Britain has become a top target, by waging an illegal war. He has seen his own home-grown terrorists. Many people have died as a result.
Blair has only provoked more anger, more hatred and more terror, through his actions. That response to Blair’s action, is unfortunately human nature. There will always be people who will want to fight back and lash out when they feel they are under attack. The problem we have is we have no moral highground. We lost that when we started slaughtering Iraqis.
67.”who will be the next Howard Flight?;) ”
maybe Howard Flight himself!
69,I’m sure you see my point;that DC will (no doubt with genuine intent) soften his party position so far that it almost looks moderate,middle-of-the road-and then some rabid right-winger will shoot his mouth about wanting huge cuts,a very nasty agenda..and leave the Tories open to the charge ‘They have’nt really changed’-time will tell
61 - I dont know much about him but someone like that may not be a bad call. I certainly think they need to find someone other than Gordon Brown.
67. I think the stats show Labour has been working very hard to shore up its ‘payroll vote’. This has also been bolstered by allowing mass immigration again. It’s a clever move to try to create a ‘blocking constituency’ of state dependents, the mirror image of the Thatcherite strategy to create a new breed of Tory voters via council house sales etc. The next GE will be an interesting test of how successful this approach has been.
70 - It looks like they’ve got the weirdo Imagine party to play the rabid right-winger rolefrom looking at their website. Could it all be a ploy to make show Cameron as being eminently reasonable in comparison?
Maybe labour should put up a barking left winger to make them look good too.
73.”Maybe labour should put up a barking left winger to make them look good too.”
There’re John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn to do it. So John Reid could scream: “if you attacks Blair, you’re one of them!!!”
New Labour is in terminal decline. “we are not Tory” will no longer wash. The new leader will have to spend most the time saying “we are not Tony!”
They have no vision, hence a campaign of personal attacks in the local elections.
They are rushing through poor policies in an attempt to secure a legacy for Blair. It is all about Blair.
They are no longer trusted and they look incompetent.
Their long established policies are generally rubbish (violent crime quadrupled, pensions in crisis, Home Office a mess, PFIs etc)
Their obsession with v i c e policies all lead to more social problems (cas inos, cannibis, bro thels, 24 hour drinking etc)
Their neo-con and authoritarian policies are frightening (Iraq, Iran, ID cards etc)
Their personal conduct is sleazy or corrupt (Prescott and his perks, Hutton auction, cash for Peerages etc)
The papers are out for Labour blood and sleaze. Labour can no longer do anything much right.
The lack of trust means spin is less effective.
There is no shining alternative to Blair. Brown may not have a honeymoon as he is so well known already. He has no charisma. He is essentially a Blairite and the economy isn’t looking fantastic. There could be 2m unemployed at next election.
The party seems to be made of either sychophantic Blairites or passive wimps who haven’t got the guts to stand up and fight to regain their party and their country.
Blair’s rush to build a legacy is locking in any successor to his agenda. Any successor will look like a Blairite without his own vision.
Brown is too passive. Compare him to Simon Hughes who has given Ming until the conference to perform better.
Labour is in a downward spiral. It will keep on going down in each local election. Small parties on the left will continue to grow and chip away at Labour’s margins.
The party will be more split. There will be defections. There will be more disillusion, more anger, more members will jump ship and the Tories should sail into government.
Fred, Labour, and left wing parties generally, are very good at building up client groups. High immigration and recruiting hundreds of thousands of new public sector workers are obviously part and parcel of this.
The problem with trying to demonise the Tories is twofold. Firstly, it’s subject to a law of diminshing returns after so long in power. Secondly, some people who do remember the last Tory government might actually rate it now more highly than the current government.
62, 68 Most of what Galloway is quoted as saying makes reasonable sense.
For example, “They [= Bush, Blair] are the sort of men who are ready to fight to the last drop of other people’s blood…They send other mothers’ sons to their death, and I find them both deeply repugnant.”
If Tony Blair (or Nick Palmer, or any of the apologists for the war on this blog) feel so strongly, let them send their own sons to fight.
Of course, Reg Keys said this more eloquently after the count in Sedgefield.
My feeling is that if any one of the opposition parties had had a leader one fraction as passionate or as honest as Reg Keys, the result of the last election would have been very different.
19 - I’m reminded of a quote about Jeremy Wofenden. His contemporaries viewed him as “the cleverest boy in Eton and therefore, by extension, the world.”
Positive reinforcement can work wonders on mediocre material.
76. Sean - I agree. Arguably we were in this position in the 1970s too, where the client groups were trade unionists and employees of nationalised industries (often overlapping of course). In 1979, the Tories managed to get a lot of votes from these groups though - the trick for the next GE is to find a formula to repeat this.
78 - the correct quote being (now I’ve checked) “It was agreed by everyone that he was the cleverest of them all, and thus, by a natural sequence of Etonian logic, the cleverest boy in England.”
77 - Quite right.
What makes Blair think he’s the man to to save the world when he can’t even control violent crime in his own backyard. Violent assaults in Britain quadrupled since he came to power?
So why do the Blairites trust him when he lets his own spin master manipulate intelligence dossiers?
The fact is Tony Blair is deluded. He’s not fit for purpose. He’s completely out of his depth and he will never understand honourable people like Reg Keys, but he thinks he can solve all the problems of the world.
Tony Blair’s new world vision:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=SWBLI2HRT5X1PQFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2006/05/27/wblair27.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/27/ixuknews.html
78. ‘Positive reinforcement can work wonders on mediocre material’
You should know!
Peter Pigeon (at 13):
“Cameron has three negatives developing
1. shooting from the hip (website, bhs)
2. being an old etonian bully
3. being a bit cranky.”
He also has another negative, although at the moment it looks like a positive: his lack of policy. At present, he is all things to all men. This cannot last, and as soon as he starts coming down to earth in terms of substantial policies, he is bound to create a different image. Massaging his image is all too easy when, in fact, he has nothing to say.
The problem is that the time is coming fast when Cameron must get off the fence. In a word, Bromley. Having torn up the manifesto that he wrote for the Tories a year ago, and still waiting for other people to tell him what his policies ought to be, the Tory campaign in Bromley can only be negative.
Certain Tory posters on here have shown us what it might look like - and it is not attractive.
60
I would have thought that for New Labour fortunes to improve they need to get rid of the unacceptable face of New Labour.
Alastair Campbell,Blunkett,Byers,Clarke & Milburn was a start that needs to be followed in short order by Tony & Cherie Blair, Prescott, Hoon,Hewitt,Straw & Falconer.
This would start to remove the daily reminders of years of New Labour sleaze,lies and incompetence from public view.
I think racial identity politics, as we see in the US is becoming prevelant. And let no one deny that the Governments enthusiasm for mass immigration is connected to the propensity for first generation immigrants to be heavy clients of the State, and thus natural Labour supporters.
If immigrants where shown to be largely Tory supporters, be in no doubt that borders would be closed pretty darn quickly.
84. And who will be left? Dennis Skinner and Gwyneth Dunwoody?
It isnt needed, but I’d love to see a revival of the “Labour isnt Working” poster.
Replace “Unemployment Office” with “Dental Surgery”, “Immigration Office”, “Emmigration Applications”, “Police Complaints”, “Pensions Handouts”, “Political Advisors Lunch” etc, etc, etc…
79,Maybe a phrase that was prevalent in the 1970s will come back into fashion- the ‘C2’s -then skilled manual workers,now colloquailly known as ‘White Van Man’ may attract particular interest from Conservative researchers,as it is a group they need to attract,in key southern and Midland marginals
4. The Cameron quote on children’s clothing
Cameron pointed out an important and under-reported problem. Recently spotted was a 8-9 year old girl with “Foxy” written across her bottom on her trousers.
What is in the mind of the manufacturers, shops keepers and parents?
Labour needs to be ashamed of undermining the country’s standards and morals with their undermine, liberalise & legalise attitude.
Well, on my maiden post I just want to say…the Tory’s are finally being seen as credible contenders by the media, Labour needs to change tactics to win the next GE because changing leader won’t be enough. On the other hand the Conservatives shouldn’t get complacent, there’s still a few years left for the tide to turn against them again.
I think the New Labour brand will be damaged for several years yet (beyond the next GE) and especially as more people who’ve grown up mainly with New Labour will have the vote by then (I had just turned 11 when they got in and now I’m at university).
Hmmm, slightly embarrassing, but I’d just turned 10 when Labour got in not 11 (too much revising has warped my brain…I need a longer break).
90 - I think your right in saying that more is needed than a new leader. Their is a lot of talk about ‘renewing’ New Labour but its hard to see how you do that without a large influx of new faces and new ideas. Neither seems to be in abundance at the moment. Still as you say a lot can change in a few years time and some of the younger Labour MP’s may yet emerge.
Incidentally the website mentioned by DC is hardly that shocking. Here’s a link to a news story on the site he was talking about.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4724165.stm
Re. 62, the newly elected Socialist government’s withdrawal of Spanish troops from Iraq didn’t stop Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism there. Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists tried, in fact, to use explosives to derail a high speed train (and claimed responsibility for the attempt) just after the troops were withdrawn.
13. Just looking at that list of negatives made me laugh,
1. Shooting from the hip - not quite the same as John Reid sounding like Sybil Fawlty at a select committee meeting.
2. Being an old Etonian bully?
3. Being a bit cranky - If that is a negative then we should stop anyone over 40 from being involved in politics! And if it was such a damaging trait, then it would certainly have hurt Labour if the Deputy PM were to punch someone during an election campaign
93 - Much like the argument that global warming doesn’t exist because in a few areas the ice sheets are growing and not shrinking, terrorists don’t follow a completely predictable path, but that does not mean we should dismiss the cause or the reasons and that we should not tackle the problem in a way that helps reduce consequences.
94 - The first point in particular is a bit rich coming from a Ming supporter. Who was it again who got a story entirely wrong about escaped foreign prisoners at PMQ’s?
I see that so far the young Tories have not come in to pick up on the second point about Cameron´s weaknesses:
“2. Being an old Etonian bully”
This is obviously the one for Lib Dems and Labour to go for…..
97 - I wasn’t at Eton and as you point out had I been I’m too young to be his contemporary so I can’t confirm or deny.
But perhaps you could remind me which comprehensive schools the following MP’s went to - Nick Clegg, David Laws, Ed Davey and Chris Huhne.
Attacking DC for going to a public school would clearly be a great idea for the Lib Dems as clearly there is no way in which it can backfire!
97. “2. Being an old Etonian bully
This is obviously the one for Lib Dems and Labour to go for….. ”
Let them do their worst. Don’t imagine Dave losing too much sleep over that.
Pigs do fly after all . This should cheer up Stuart Dickson.
From the The Sunday Times
Unionist academic throws weight behind independence
Marc Horne
The Sunday Times, May 28, 2006
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2200538,00.html
ONE OF Scotland’s most prominent academics — and a staunch defender of the union with England — has announced his conversion to independence.
Niall Ferguson, professor of history at Harvard University and author of several books celebrating the success of the British empire, said that he now believes Scotland would be better off as a separate nation state.
He claims that Scotland’s “dismal” progress since devolution has convinced him to abandon his lifelong commitment to unionism.
It is not the first ideological volte-face performed by the Glasgow-born historian. In 2003 he supported the allied invasion of Iraq before becoming a critic of the war and reversing his previously strong support for the Bush administration in the 2004 American election.
Earlier this year he compared Scotland with Belarus, the former Soviet republic which has clung to Stalinist policies.
Ferguson, presenter of a new history of the 20th century series for Channel 4, entitled The War of the World, said he believes that the 1707 Act of Union should now be repealed.
“Devolution gives Scots the illusion of self-government but not the reality of it. The parliament is essentially a glorified council and cannot flourish while it acts as a mere channel for aid from England,” he said.
“I now find myself feeling that independence would be preferable to this halfway house we have at the moment.
“Ireland and some of the east European countries like Estonia are showing that small countries which embrace economic liberalism can thrive.”
The expatriate Scot said one reason why he left Scotland was the sustained erosion of the “can do” enterprising spirit that he had experienced in the Glasgow of his childhood. Ferguson believes that an independent Scotland could flourish if it ditched its statist economic assumptions.
“What Scotland needs is a re-injection of the ideas of Adam Smith,” he said. “If economic liberalism has a birthplace it is Glasgow and I do wonder where that all went.
“It was part of the culture I grew up in, but increasingly it seems to have vanished and been replaced by a clapped-out socialist model of state intervention and hand-outs.
“There is a kind of dead hand gripping hold of Scotland at the moment and this lack of enthusiasm for market economics is causing the country to underperform economically.
“The future looks grim if, as present, Scotland maintains a demoralising gradual decline as little more than an extra bit of the north of England.”
He said Scotland needed to shake off its “unhealthy fixation” with its southern neighbour before it could progress.
“We have got to stop worrying about how we compare with England and start looking outwards at how other small countries fare. It is frankly pathetic that the most important issue on Jack McConnell’s agenda is reassuring people that he will be supporting Trinidad and Tobago rather than England in the World Cup.
“Since I left Scotland I have found it liberating not to be thinking about my identity in terms of this ‘wha’s like us’ attitude that prevails.
“A reduction in financial drip-feeding from England might force Scots to think a little harder about the world around it.”
Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, described Ferguson as a “surprising convert” to independence, adding: “It is better to have a repenting convert than a constant detractor.”
Amusing to see one prominent Lib Dem (having attended Cambridge himself) attacking Cameron for elitism, and another attacking him for being ‘All things to all men’ as though this were not the practical central tenet of Lib Demmery.
Thanks to you gentlemen for a good laugh.
98 - And Max, the Sage of Maidenhead (as John13 is affectionately known to My Lord Matlock and me) really must have loathed Joe Grimond and Jeremy Thorpe, Liberal leaders who both also attended a certain ‘comprehensive’ school near Slough.
98 - Like it Max !
97. “Being an old Etonian bully?” I did query that comment. I do think you need more than the fact that someone went to Eton and then became Leader of the conservative’s to label them a “bully”.
102.”And Max, the Sage of Maidenhead (as John13 is affectionately known to My Lord Matlock and me) ”
oh, were you referring to him? I always thought you were talking about Theresa May!
Re. 95, this is to risk confusing the factors which have increased terrorist recruitment (ie the invasion of Iraq) with the motives and activities of the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist groups, namely:
a) The liberation of Catholic East Timor (long a cause of the left, and rightly so) from Muslim Indonesia (anger at this has been referred to in at least two Al Qaeda statements, one after the Bali bombing, and one after the killing of Sergio Vieria de Mello in the bombing of the UN’s Baghdad headquarters)
b) the very existence of Israel (Al Qaeda does not want a two-state solution, nor - so far at least - does Hamas)
c) anger at the expulsion of the Moors from Andalucia in 1492, and the desire to include Andalucia in an Islamic Caliphate (whether Catholic Spaniards in the region like it or not)
d) Kashmir under Sharia law
e) The rolling back of the very limited progress made towards increased rights for women in Saudi Arabia (and the greater progress made towards increasing women’s rights in Bahrain).
f) The view that democracy is ‘unIslamic’ when laws should derive from Allah rather than being made by man.
Yes, we can work on the grievances that feed recruitment to Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism (like a two-state solution to Israel and Palestine), just as we addressed the grievances that fed PIRA recruitment (such as gerrymandering and discrimination against Catholics in employment), but to say that terrorist activity will cease altogether, or that the terrorists will leave us alone, if we address the injustices that feed recruitment, is wishful thinking.
106 - Yep, all stemmed from a local by-election several month ago in which our hero, on the basis of his intensive canvassing, confidently declaimed here that the Tories had no chance. Er, and on the day, we romped home to a stunning victory, gaining the seat
Judging by his unique and welcoming approach, we can but hope that John will be urgently drafted to the forthcoming “Flatlining Here” campaign in Bromley and Chislehurst
100. Marcia
Thank you very much for your very kind sentiment,… but who said I wanted cheering up? Grumpiness is my natural state of equilibrium: I am after all a typical male Scotchman
(Luckily our female compatriots are a more presentable bunch, give or take the odd exception… )
Where is the Police investigation going, according to the Guardian, the Police are looking into links with Lord Black and the Conservative Party.
Is it a large fishing expedition, so a report can eventually say, there is blight on all three main political parties.
However, the Cps state not enough evidence, to prosecute.
Then the media take sides, once the report is leaked, to who is the worst culprit.
108. yes, I recall. It was for Windsor council, right?
now, John O, cheack your email box to support the lost soul you know
110
“It emerged last week that further arrests may be “imminent” in the investigation into the loans for honours allegations, according to sources on the parliamentary committee probing the affair, which met police officers two weeks ago.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2200306,00.html
108 - John, I believe the correct terminology (following the recent local election triumph) is ‘consolidating here’.
113
You bet…!!
Another one of us lurkers has been driven out of the woodwork, so I’ll say a quick hello, and also compliment you all for the generally high level of discussion on here.
A bit worried about my computer though, as having clicked on the Chad Noble website (the personal one that is linked to the page chadnoble.com), it appears to have planted some kind of Trojan in my computer which McAfee cannot seem to quarantine or delete. Hence my worry.
Has anyone else been to it and had this problem and if so should I be worried? Currently running an Ad-Aware scan on my computer.
Maybe I should be more careful about clicking on unsolicited websites, though I must admit I was still taken by the potential to be sh***ing within 4 hours…
115. “A bit worried about my computer though, as having clicked on the Chad Noble website (the personal one that is linked to the page chadnoble.com), it appears to have planted some kind of Trojan in my computer which McAfee cannot seem to quarantine or delete. Hence my worry.”
I had a virus warning when I clicked on it too. I clicked “ok” to what the anti-virus was telling me and well, I hope I got rid of it.
Sage John
Actually I think that the crankiness of Cameron is connected to the lack of policy (and listen the Now Show if you don’t think this aspect of Cameron is not entering the public consciousness
The Eric Forth question (”am I still a conservative?”) is probably at the heart of this.
The world is full of fine old etonians (let’s add Rendell and Lyttleton to John O’s list). But if you come from that background you surely need to avoid sounding like a bully.
97 - John13
“ I see that so far the young Tories have not come in to pick up on the second point about Cameron´s weaknesses:
“2. Being an old Etonian bully”
This is obviously the one for Lib Dems and Labour to go for…..”
To be frank voters simply don’t care about that sort of thing, it would seem to be the surest way for Labour to appeal to their base while alienating swing voters for them to adopt a “class war” style attack on Cameron… it strikes me as pretty pathetic this is just the sort of attack that Prescott and Brown seem to favour, it’ll no doubt be adopted and make “Cameron the chameleon” look like a roaring success.
For the LibDems to adopt it would be a sure-fire means of offending every privately educated or simply middle class voter who might identify with Cameron’s attitudes and aspirations… bye, bye Bath, Cheltenham, Eastleigh, Oxford West, and so on… if that where ever the LibDem strategy.
97. “2. Being an old Etonian bully”…
…um,I thought the LibDems and Labour where meant to be inclusive. Are you implying that because someone went to a public/independent school they don’t have the right to become leaders of political parties? That they should be barred from holding government positions? That doesn’t sound like a very New Labour or Liberal thing to say. Although it does tie in with old Labour class predudices. Fortunately for everyone on this site an old Labour-style party will never win a general election in the UK.
As for the “bully” part…where do you get that from? Even if you could reasonably call Cameron a bully there are plenty of politicians (past and present) across all parties who could be said to be bullies. Prescott is probably the most obvious example.
‘Predudices’ should be ‘prejudices’ but who really cares?
OK…Why isn’t there a way of modifying posts? It would be so much easier.
Noble is a walking ego. He formed the Progressive Conservative Party, then decided he liked Cameron, turned ProgCon into a “think-tank” and joined the Conservatives. He last a couple of months before resigning in a huff and registering “Internationalist” as a political party. He then dumped that and created the Imagine Party, and now appears to be standing as an independent in Bromley. He also stated on the LDYS forum that he would have considered joining the Liberal Democrats had Huhne won the leadership. He still lurks on ConservativeHome, pretending to be a Tory.
As far as I can tell, he’s a one-man band, and I doubt the Bromley & Chislehurst Conservatives are losing an awful lot of sleep over him…
121 Don’t worry bluestudent, everyone’s grammar and spelling are appaling on here!
BTW on the “Etonian bully” comments (97/94) are you guys just desperately looking for something to criticise Cameron on, or are you trying to fill the vacated “nasty party” slot in British politics?
118 / 119
Neither Labour nor Lib Dems need to go for this one. It is out there. Apparently Cameron knows this and is trying to suppress some of his mannerisms.
Reid is certainly a bully - see the current Eye re. his behaviour towards Elizabeth Filkin and others during her inquiry into the way he misused MPs’ office expenses in the Scottish Parliament election campaign.
82, 98, 101 - where in my quote did I attack David Cameron for elitism? Any inference drawn between Cameron and mediocrity is in the mind of the reader - I didn’t draw it.
There is also a fundamental difference between Eton and Cambridge University - one can attend the latter on merit, not solely on the size of one’s parents’ wallet.
125 He has always been a nasty piece of work. He come from the Lanarkshire Labour mafia who think life should revolve around them.
104, 119, 123 - his being an old Etonian is by the by. As to whether he’s a bully? Jeff Randall from the Daily Telegraph certainly seems to thing so:
126 – Tabman
It’s a fair point about Cambridge and Eaton.
My own view on private education is that it’s a waste of money frankly, to be sure parents should have the freedom to pay fees to allow their children to go to private schools, just as they should be able to hire tutors or by books and stationary for their children… but in the case of private education it will simply be a waste.
The simple fact is that, in the main, kids perform best in state schools, with teachers that are properly qualified while at the same time they are less likely to be discriminated against by universities and employers.
So, in short, it simply isn’t worth send your kids to private school, though I never seek to stop someone doing so as, for a minority of kids, private schools can be a place where they really thrive, but it is a minority and there are still serious draw backs.
PS: I say this as someone who went to Uppingham for a term – hated it, was effectively labelled a failure in every subject, was then carted off to the local comprehensive where I stayed and sat my A-leves where I got ABC (and in ’03 those where good maks
).
128. Well if it was in the Telegraph it must be true……
Re. 124 and Cameron’s mannerisms, there’s the way he says ‘you know’ so often. It’s on a par with Blair’s Belgravia Cockney variation, ‘Y’know’, or his saying ‘Look…’
130 - I know for a fact that everything in the Daily Telegraph is true. My mate who works there says so
126 - And where in my post did I make any reference to anything you said? It was in response to Peter’s post at 13.
As to Randall’s comments it is hardly proof he was a bully. Sounds like allegations of bullying are yet another baseless smear by Lib Dems on a man they are, apparently, competely unworried by.
133 - well, Max, treating people asking genuine questions as if they are stupid, being rude, and stonewalling would certianly be bullying tactics in my book. Perhaps you believe that’s acceptable behaviour?
129. Ben, I have to disagree with you. I think private education gives very good opportunities to kids. Most of these schools give good education, and results show it. Also, just because teachers in independent schools don’t have to have the same qualifications those in comprehensive schools do it does not necessarily mean they’re not any good.
PS: I say this as someone who went to an independent school for 7 years, and people got very good GCSEs and A-Levels.
134 - No it’s an outrage imagine being rude to journalists. I am shocked and appaled that anyone could act in such a way.
I’m sure generation of children have been scarred by bullies ’stonewalling’ them.
Tabman if that’s the best you can come up with to prove allegations that Cameron is a bully I would suggest that Labour and the Lib Dems will struggle to sell that message to the wider electorate.
133 - oh, and Ian King, business editor of everyone’s favourite organ, The Sun, referred to him as “a smarmy bully”. So hardly a “Lib Dem smear” - the Telegraph and the Sun are not our house journals
I think it is taking it too far to suggest those comments imply bullying. They merely highligh the use of an unsuccessful media strategy for a failing company. In Business it can be a quite a usual occurence for those you deal with outside your company to get involved in slanging matches. I remember while I was doing some legal experience last summer having to phone a European lawyer to try and reach a financial settlement on costs for a disputed case and him shouting at me. I personally thought it was funny and typical of the fastidious and rather naive European attitude that refuses to compromise even marginally on costs.
136 - when you’re in Public Relations, surely being rude to journalists (who are the oxygen of your publicity) smacks of incompetence if nothing else?
Well Max, given the choice who would you rather have as leader: Cameron or Ming? I know which one I’d rather have
(He’s the younger one incase you don’t realise.)
135 – “bluestudent” – I think we might be in the same student organisation lol!
I don’t doubt that some kids do pretty well in private education (when you consider the fees you would certainly hope so!), however while some kids in private education prosper many do not, furthermore performance in private schools is rarely any better than in many state schools.
The key difference is the manner in which private schools often seek to indirectly distort their pupils’ academic performance (I must stress this is not the case in all private schools), its nothing sinister put simply they make sure the candidates who stand the best chance of performing strongly academically are let into the schools are let into the school – the key difference is that, in the main, private schools (despite all their resources) do little to nurture or cultivate the talents of their pupils, in contrast to many state schools.
On the issue of teachers, there are many teachers who haven’t been through the conventional avenues to train for their profession and are yet good teachers, what’s more many fully trained teachers work in private schools, the sad fact is however that most teachers who have not been properly trained are simply not equipped to teach effectively and harness the abilities of the children they are teaching. This is a major factor IMHO in the failure of many private schools to nurture the academic potential of their pupils – put simply they lack the expertise to do it.
Finally do not underestimate the huge disadvantage than those who have been privately educated find themselves at when applying to universities or for jobs, true those who have excelled will often continue to do so, however those who have not excelled often suffer from discrimination having gained little else from their fee-paying education.
As I say, some kids really do thrive in various fee paying schools. What’s more “private schools” are many and varied and while many in the “headmasters conference” are increasingly struggling other independent schools continue to do well and their pupils go on to do well. It is a complex issue and generalisations are tough to make, but in the main I simply do not think most private schools are worth the fees – that’s not, of course, to say that some are in fact worth the money.
141 Ben - you really underestimate private schools and how they support their students.
For example all pupils applying to Oxbridge from my school go one-on-one tuition from teachers to help them with the interview… Out of a year of 60 pupils 18 applied to Oxbridge and 9 got offers. The school is academically selective, but even so…
Also their is a huge Old Girls Network of women who have gone into business. I start in the City in a month’s time and have already been invited to dinners and networking events…
“treating people asking genuine questions as if they are stupid, being rude, and stonewalling would certianly be bullying tactics in my book. Perhaps you believe that’s acceptable behaviour? ”
Is that Blair at Prime Minister’s Question Time we’re talking about? Sounds like a perfect description!
?35 - As a teacher who has taught in state and private schools I can tell you that, apart from the dodgiest private schools, the teachers in the independent sector are exactly the same, with requisite BEds or PGCEs. In actual fact many, like myself, decamped from the state system purely because government interference in the state system was just becoming ridiculous.
The chippy comments re. DC posted on this site by the Lib Dems today are really pitiful. But very revealing.
41 - Ben, you may want to note that most schools at the top of the recently introduced league tables based on value added are independent, something I don’t think was expected when the idea was mooted but which does reflect the dedication and hard work of staff in taking good students and making them even better.
Just to back that up, here’s a comparison -
http://tinyurl.com/olm8b
141. A very good post Ben, don’t fully agree with you though
Speaking as someone who went through the comprehensive system, and then came to a university stacked full of people who didn’t, I often find it somewhat frustrating and amusing the number of people here at Durham who are, to be frank, not overly bright, but have been taught how to answer exams and sound clever (there are also lots of VERY clever private school educated people).
I think this is what private school gives which state school cannot; it teaches people how to write and articulate themselves and sound confident in their views. State schools simply cannot afford to spend the time with pupils doing this. As a result we get worse results, go to worse universities and get worse jobs. There are also more opportunities to do extra-cirricular activities in private schools, which further makes their pupils more attractive and more confident. And private schools also get their pupils to pick and choose which GCSEs/A-Levels to take to a greater degree than state schools, so they end up coming out with better results.
I think state school teachers do tend to be somewhat more rounded, and certainly more used to dealing with pupils who don’t give a sh!t and are happy to articulate that.
Finally private school also increasing contacts, which is a bonus once pupils are looking post-uni for jobs. The numbers of students here at Durham whose parents have “arranged” for their child to have something to do after they leave here is quite staggering, and too often its with “daddy” or “daddy’s friend”.
re 47. I think that more than three-fifths of the electorate would disagree strongly with you. Blair has no mandate to misgovern this country at all.
Obviously, if Cameron is indeed the kind of useless bully which his Tory friends at the Telegraph seem to think, then he is just the man to lead the ‘Grand Coalition’ after the next election, with John Prescott as his deputy.
Apparently some people are moaning today in the Sunday Times about Prescott playing croquet rather than governing whil Tony Blair is off scouring Tuscany for freebies. I would have thought that anyone with any sense would realise what an incredibly good thing it is for the country that Prescott should remain distracted for this period. Presumably, if he suddenly develops an urge to become involved in something more brain-stretching than cucumber sandwiches in the Dorneywood conservatory, there will always be someone on hand to throw the odd diary secretary at him?
107 - I’m not saying terrorism would have stopped altogether, but I do believe if Blair had done the right thing 7/7 would not have happened. I have little doubt about that. He provoked it before, during and after the invasion with his loose language and his inaction on those who preached hatred.
We could compare it to a man who kills children. The relatives of those murdered children may be so full of anger and hate when they see that man supported by his own family, they might want to bomb them.
But if the murderer took responsibility for his actions, said sorry and handed himself over to the authorities for justice to be served, his own family would likely be safer.
This is exactly the situation we have with Blair. Millions hate his guts because of Iraq. Many would like to cause mayhem to those that support him. If Blair had done the right thing at the right time, that hatred and anger would be diluted.
50 - Where did your d go?
146. You are right in yout points, but you forgot to add money (so smaller class sizes, more staff, more fieldtrips, better resources). Also parents who send their children to private school where they pay are going to be more interested in their child’s academic development, if purely on a “I’m paying for it so I’m damn well going to make sure its worth the money!”
Indeed one of the big arguments against private schools is that they take out of the system the parents who are most likely to drive up standards at state schools.
126 - Tabman
I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Getting to Cambridge MAY not depend on the size of your parent’s wallet, but it definitely depends on your background, and in particular, which school you went to. Go to the wrong school and you have no chance.
I speak as someone who went to a school where (to my knowledge) no pupil EVER went to Oxbridge. (It has since been demolished, so I think that it’s unlikely to break its duck.) There weren’t many of its pupils that to went to ANY university.
Instead of encouraging me to aim high, the school advised me not to bother applying for a university place at all, let alone Oxbridge. “We’ve got a good relationship with the local tech college. We might be able to get you a place there.”
I remember vividly the contempt on the faces of the interviewers at Cambridge at the impudence of a cockney aspiring to go to a posh university. At a later date, I learnt that certain schools had “quotas” at Oxbridge - it just sums it up.
Oxbridge may have become less exclisive and elitist in recent years, but I would take a lot of convincing.
In the end, it was Cambridge’s loss; I went and got my degree and doctorate elsewhere.
As an aside, it took me a very long time to get my first job. Eventually, the university careers advisory service told me that I had to lose my strong cockey accent before I had any chance of getting a job. They told me that any regional accent was acceptable, except the cockney one. Employers automatically label you as “thick”.
Losing my accent, deliberately and quickly, was difficult, but I managed it and subsequently got my first job. Later I founded my own business, which I still run.
If I’ve learnt anything, it’s that the most consistently discriminated against group in the UK are the cockneys. It’s insidious, incessant, and never gets noticed, let alone denounced.
Rant now over, I’ll subside back into institutionalised lurking.
As for attacking the Tories and Cameron;
Paint Cameron as immature and unready for power; too hot-headed, overreacts when criticised.
Separate him from his party and paint them as unreformed.
Try the whole flip-flopping thing a little, but not too much, mainly use it to show he is inconsistent.
153 - The state system needs to made better so that people who have the freedom to choose will choose to do so. The fact is though that this also perverts the system. Take an example from my own experience.
My previous school was one of the highest performing state comprehensives, many parents sent their children there, even though they could easily afford private education, and other less well off parents were forced out into less academic schools. What annoyed me was the self righteousness of some who congratulated themselves on using the state system, whilst being able to afford better holidays and homes and, all the while, stopping a less well off family from taking that school place.
The real difference, as you mention, is parents. What do they want, are they prepared to fight for it and do they know how to work the system in their favour?
154.”Instead of encouraging me to aim high, the school advised me not to bother applying for a university place at all, let alone Oxbridge. “We’ve got a good relationship with the local tech college. We might be able to get you a place there.””
There are many state schools which have that attitude, but equally many which don’t. My old headteacher was a Cambridge graduate so was very keen on getting as many of us to apply as possible. We had mock interviews at school and in Oxford with contacts the school had there, consequently out of a year of maybe 35-40ish taking A-levels we had 5 get offers from Oxbridge, which is rare for a state school. If state schools were more keen on it and encouraged more applications I expect there would be more state school pupils at Oxbridge.
141. Tistoph, I agree with you about extra-curricular activities and greater flexibility with picking and choosing subjects, but the big advantage independent schools have is the very fact that they are independent. They’re not restricted by Government interference like state schools are.
I have to admit that (in my school at least) the stereotypical claim that private schools can be a breeding ground for Tories was proved to be true. At the time of the 2001 General Election my school held a mock election to try and get kids more interested in national politics. Several HUNDRED voted Tory, a few DOZEN voted Lib Dem and hardly anyone voted Labour (whilst nationally Labour won a landslide). In 2005 they didn’t see the point in holding another election, but a huge majority of kids in my year (who had turned 18 and could vote) went out and voted Tory.
At this point can I recommend the Alan Bennett play ‘The History Boys’, soon to be released as a film and about to take a slew of Tony awards on Broadway.
It’s about a group of state school boys being drilled for Oxbridge exams but it’s also a wonderful examination of teaching methods and what education should be about.
There’s a double CD available of the original cast.
58 - Interesting, my current (private) school mock election last year showed a tory majority but with around 50% of the vote, with a pretty even spread between labour, lib dems and greens. Of course a lot of younger students will have simply aped their parents but all the candidates were excellent and engaging.
They counted the teacher vote separately and the lib dems won by a decent margin.
160. ukpaul, yeah a majority of the teachers at my school were Lib Dem or Labour I think. My school was in West Yorkshire, not the most friendly of regions to the Tories in the past 15/20 years so I’d guess there are plenty of other private schools in the country with much bigger Tory bias amongst parents/students.
158. Ahh, school mock elections, that takes me back…the “Greens” won ours, although that was only because he got most of his year to vote for him! To be honest he wasn’t Green at all.. The LD candidate got by far the most most votes of the major party candidates, but she was very attractive… Tories got 10 votes and Labour 8. IIRC I got 9.
I’m not sure if I agree with you re; government interference. It can hinder state schools yes, but I would not put it down as one of the major advantages of independent schools. My education didn’t suffer because the school had to jump through hoops and ensure certain standards were met.
It has been described as the most shocking film in history.
An amazing 90% of critics are giving it the thumbs up.
It is a film that could literally change the world.
It is a new global warming documentary called An Inconvenient Truth.
Presented by Al-Gore, winner of the most votes in USA 2000, it is set to take America by storm and hopefully show up the Bush administration that is in denial over Global Warming.
Anticipation for this film is sky high. It took a staggering 80,000 dollars on its first day, last Friday, from only 4 screens and will open all around America over the next month.
Many believe this will be the new Farenheit 9/11. This film could be used to attack Bush’s inaction on the climate change and over here it could help that very green Mr Cameron.
America has its head in the sand on this issue. Maybe when another Katrina comes, the American people will look at it differently and they will start to demand action.
Link:
http://www.climatecrisis.net/
154,As someone who is fiercerly proud of being the grandson of an Eastender,(and despite having spent 99% of his life living in Bournemouth,I have more than a hint of North London in my voice(sounds more like ‘Norff Landan’ if I say it out loud)- I would personally rather not be employed by someone who did not accept my accent. My aunt,from Shropshire,was told in the early 1960s her regional accent could hold back her career-I am appalled to read you suffered such blatant snobbery.(Before anyone tries to type-cast me as a class warrior,I would remind you there is a hard-core minority of working-class Tories in London’s East End who make Norman Tebbit sound like a Lib Dem!:wink:
Re. 154, surveys show that Liverpool and Birmingham are the regional accents most discriminated against, but I’m wary of arguing with such bitter personal experience. Snobbery isn’t dead, and it makes me very angry when I read the supercilious snobbery of Digby Anderson or Theodore Dalrymple (though Dalrymple’s snobbery is more of the anti-northern variety, ie taking some train station announcer to task for daring to pronounce Newcastle to rhyme with hassle).
Re. 157, quite right. The Sixth Form College I went to (for all its other faults, like making people write essays silently in class instead of trusting them to do it in their free periods or at home, making people do cr*ppy modules which counted for nothing when they could have had more free periods, timing A-Level Mocks for January just so they completely ruin people’s Christmas holidays, a pompous Vice Principal banning the Debating Society from debating the legalisation of cannabis, and the tutors issuing such utterly pathetically patronising advice such as ‘Don’t get run over during your exams’) had a dedicated Oxbridge entrance tutor. He’s one of the better people there (not a pompous ass like the Vice Principal mentioned).
If you don’t like the sound of this place, and you’re in the Stoke-on-Trent area about to finish your GCSEs, give Stoke-on-Trent Sixth Form College a miss.
163. Printz, Respect’s supporter Ken Loach just won the top prize at Cannes Festival with a movie about Republicans in early 20th century Ireland.
The party needs to develop an effective demolition of the tories as they are today, and not what they were in the past.
New episode of SSP saga:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/5025346.stm
I start not to understand what they’re trying to do!
Max, Jack, Marcia?
One thing I will say about private schools and I mean boarding schools here is that they can give children a respite and a sense of stability from difficult home lifes such as when parents divorce. They also teach you to stand on your two feet and take everything thrown at you in life. When I started at my school I was in a dormitory with about 20 other boys having lived in a single bedroom in the same house all my life, having been to day school 5 mins walk from my house. You either sink or swim in that situation.
142 - “For example all pupils applying to Oxbridge from my school go one-on-one tuition from teachers to help them with the interview… Out of a year of 60 pupils 18 applied to Oxbridge and 9 got offers. The school is academically selective, but even so…
Also their is a huge Old Girls Network of women who have gone into business. I start in the City in a month’s time and have already been invited to dinners and networking events…”
Ah yes, meritocratic Tory Britain in all its glory!
154 - Once Bitten, this is always going to be a matter of personal experience to some degree. At my (former secondary modern) comprehensive no-one had been to Cambridge before either.
60 “The party needs to develop an effective demolition of the tories as they are today, and not what they were in the past.”
I think the problem with NuLab is that thy are living in the past. They spend way too much time opposing their hard left … from pre 97. Most of what they do seems to be to get one up on their awkward squad circa 2000. Politics is moving on and they aren’t. They are beginning to look old-fashioned. What I find most refreshing about Cameron is that he talks about new things. He talks about issues I consider to be important.
I am heartily sick of being bashed over the head with the Blair reform agenda. It ain’t working. The NHS looks like it’s going into melt down. The education agenda is a mess. The Blairite education agenda looks like a recipe to make UK educatiuon even worse (if that’s possible).
And while I join with Blair in wishing the new Iraqi government the best of luck, I think Iraq has basically had it.
My judgement on Blair is that he’s a brilliant polititian but has been dreadful at government (just imagine for a moment had he not had a brilliant economy and lots of money to play with), and a mediocre international statesman to say the least. He just hasn’t been able to make the step up from bloke with a lot promise to someone who is actually a good PM. He’s wrecked a lot of very good ideas.
It’s a pity they no one has run a market on who is going to be Deputy First Minister in the Northern Ireland Assembly when it kicks off again. Previously the MP for Mid Ulster would have been 100/1 ON…until that is he’s been outed in the media as a suspected British spy…
As for Mr Cameron, I’d agree he’s sloppy alright but at some point he’ll get caught and he will have to bring in some sharper behind the scenes people. What I’d be more concerned about if I was a Tory is that his front benchers don’t have heaveyweights in their ranks with the possible exception of Mr Davis, they just don’t feel powerful enough. Look at them, and think of the phrase ‘big political beasts’. Not one matches. Bring back big Ken, if he would take a job.
168 - they cannot afford to mount up huge legal fees so have decided to bring their defiance to an end. They would have bankrupted the SSP if it continued.
173. but why does Sheridan first attack McCombe (the mislading the party part) and then salute his courage in the following line?
It sounds a bit bizarre to me.
146 - Notts County (bwahaha:) “The chippy comments re. MC posted on this site by the Tories recently are really pitiful. But very revealing.”
“perhaps you could remind me which comprehensive schools the following MP’s went to - Nick Clegg, David Laws, Ed Davey and Chris Huhne.”
NuLab isn’t exactly brimming with comp people either. Two i think? Hilary Benn (he’s a C2 … ) and Prezza. Prezza is a one man advert for NOT supporting comps.
169 - Andrew M - you make it sound like it was run by Wackford Squeers!
174 - One does not like to intrude on private grief. The joke used to be that the SSP MSP’s only got headlines when they got arrested at demonstrations. This sorry saga is due to the egos of three or so female MSP’s who have fallen out with Sheridan. They should remember that they only got elected on the back of Tommy Sheridan’s performance in the previous parliament. I suspect Tommy Sheridan still has his eye on the List selection for Glasgow later this year where he should top the list, hence his statement. Next on the list would be Rosie Kane - but her re-election based on the past week is getting to be more difficlt. I think Tommy will be glad to see the back of her.
169- Andrew M.
“You either sink or swim in that situation.”
While I don’t agree with all of your post I think you’ve got that dead right, pupils either flourish or flounder and the major failing of private schools is (despite small class sizes) they are often unable to nurture the potential of students who do not fit the mould perfectly, unlike many state schools.
146- ukpaul.
I’m not surprised by that, excellent pupils will perform excellently where ever they go, the flaw in private schools is that they frequently fail to cultivate the potential of students who do not conform to their expectations, in contrast many state schools are excellent in this regard, providing the chance for pupils to excel (and I mean really excel) who would be totally dismissed by many private schools.
142- Anna.
I don’t doubt that some “old boy/girl networks” do confer advantages upon students from private schools, but this really is the exception rather than the rule, what is more such networks are a declining feature of corporate and political life. They are declining for the simple reason that permitting favouritism (and I don’t mean that in an accusatory way at all!) in the selection of candidates for posts, not based on their talent simply does not allow organisations to function at their peak.
Consequently the importance of “networks” is in decline and it is an advantaged enjoyed, increasingly, only by those who are already sufficiently talented to compete with others for posts and positions, it is no longer the case that mediocre qualifications can be overcome through connections.
PS: Can I stress again that I’m not try to launch an invective against private education to those who have been privately educated.
178. marcia, thanks. The only SSP woman I know is the one who goes around dressed like a sort of bizarre hippy!
Rechecked and it was “public school arrogance” that Cameron was being tainted with, rather than Eton bullying.
The problem is for him is that this reinforces one Conservative stereotype, when his general aim is to get away from them.
Sounding like a former public-schoolboy is quite positive for Blair because it plays against Labour stereotypes.(How would Labour do with prescott as leader?)
Prescott did not go to a comp by the way.
Marcia should realise that Neil Ferguson might have become a convert for Scottish independence but when he is in the UK he lives in a rather large house in Wales!
175. Do you know what ‘chippy’ means? Campbell has been attacked on this site for being too old and too ineffectual, but not because of his background. By contrast the attacks on DC today have consisted almost wholly of puerile digs at his social and educational background.
Private Education..public education….grammar….comprehensive.
The reality is this.. you aren’t going to breing kids at the bottom up by putting them in with smart kids and you are going to drag the smart kids down by putting them in with kids who are not so good and not so interested.
A smart kid who shows aptitude for academia probably costys less to educate than a kid who is not so good, not so motivated or just plain disruptive. Logically therefore wouldnt putting smart kids with other smart kids be a good economically effective idea. Then more resource can be pumped into the less able or disruptive kids?
Wasn’t there a thing called the Assisted Places Scheme once that helped smart kids from less well off backgrounds get to those schools with higher academic reputations? What was wrong with it?
Labour believe you can force kids to some kind of equality of opprtunity but you can’t. If they don’t have the ability or are not motivated thats just how it goes. If they aren’t up to no amount of trying to force it is hoping to work, end of. All you can do is get them to a decent level of basic skills to let them get on and get them an alternative skill outside of pure academia.
Not sure if this is an example of Cameron having cranky views, being policy-lite or fact-lite!
http://paulwalter.blogspot.com/2006/05/cameron-skating-on-thin-ice.html
184.”Labour believe you can force kids to some kind of equality of opprtunity but you can’t. If they don’t have the ability or are not motivated thats just how it goes.”
Equality of opportunity doesn’t mean equality of results. It means giving everyone the same opportunities. Then you can’t take them (because you’ve no abilities, because you don’t try hard,…).
Following on from 176 and others, obviously not all those who are educated at a public school end up in the same mould. Personally, I have found those who went to Winchester were in every way different from the others and indeed, from one another. Winchester seems to develop the individual, but my sample may be small….
And obviously people are different one from another. But arrogance and bullying are characteristics often to be found in those who passed through Eton, and indeed an indifference to others of no importance. Just my experience, of course. Did I have a bad sample there?
But Chameron does seem to fit the mould.
179. Ben, I don’t think your trying to launch all out assault on private schools, but I just don’t agree with you. Although you may be trying to avoid generalising things I think that’s exactly what your doing.
PS. I know it’s a while since but at 141 where you said you think we may be in the same student organisation which did you mean exactly?
184 – Yokel
Have you heard of a thing called “streaming”?
It is simply not the case that smart kids are put in the same class as disruptive, unintelligent kids, what is more your caricature misses out kids who are gifted but need time and support to excel (dyslexic kids etc…) and frequently do better in state schools rather than private schools.
Personally I’m sympathetic to a much more diverse system of education, within the public sector, schools that are able to specialise in a few areas and foster local Kids with aptitudes in those areas, while at the same time rejecting the mantra that sees the “A-level to universities” as the only credible avenue for post-16 education and promoting vocational and practical courses.
In the end, education is about preparing future generations to function as engaged citizens and as a competitive workforce, the current system does neither IMHO and needs wide-ranging reform so that it does.
188 – bluestudent
I think its fair to say that I perceive their to be big institutionalised and structural problems with private education that make it a poor vehicle for the education of a majority of children, I believe there are exceptions (as I say private schools vary hugely) so ultimately I probably am criticising the model of private education that is most common in the UK.
Some of the failings of private schooling is in the reaction of other bodies to it (recruiters, universities etc…), but there are also failings by some private schools (traditional the “HMC” schools) which are of their own making. Private schools which seek to effectively cater to the needs of their students and boast highly trained staff and well-equipped facilities often do well by their pupils however.
As I say, I am very much under impressed by the quality of education offered by many private schools which IMHO are inflexible and do little to improve children’s prospects, however as I must stress some, often more modern private schools (ex-grammars etc…), do indeed do very well for their pupils.
But its probably best that we agree to disagree, with the parting statement that I’ve got no objection to the principle of private education just that in the UK you have to be a very particular sort of kid to do well through the system of education adopted by the majority of private schools.
On the topic of the “shared student organisation”… I would assume you where also a member of conservative future?
190.”On the topic of the “shared student organisation”… I would assume you where also a member of conservative future? ”
do you have to be a student to be a Conservative Future member? I thought every tory under 30 could join it even if they’re not student.
191 - No, you don’t have to be a student at all to be a CF member - just under the age of 30.
But back to myother point about the essential contradictions of Cameronism. These are summed up very eloquently here:
“But his approach is deeply flawed: he is seeking to forge a big tent, one which can encompass the Tory Party base, as well as those former Tory voters who have switched to New Labour or the Lib Dems.
To the Tory base, he is striking the traditional right-wing notes: Europe, taxes and law and order. To the centre ground, he is preaching emptily emetic feel-good concepts, like ‘green growth’ and ‘general well-being’.”
From “http://www.stephentall.org.uk/articles/116.html
Sooner or later - at Bromley? - Cameron and the Tories are going to have to define what they stand for.
191. Ben, you’re correct in assuming I’m a member of Conservative Future…and the private school I went to was an ex-grammer, so that fits in with your arguement.
194 – bluestudent
Then we have nothing more to disagree on
Ben
Whilst streaming does occur, mixed ability classes still exist in large numbers and are an experiment in social engineering by the state that just don’t work. I only know this because I know quite a few teachers at various different schools, some considered good, some not so good.
Kids who are talented but have some kind of complicationg condition such as dyslexia are still be shoved into regular classes. The reason for this situation is just political dogma and perversion of the equality agenda. Some kids need more help to achieve but surely the best way to do so is put them into classes specialist teachers who are best equipped to get them there.
Otherwise I’d agree with you, the governments route to educational achivement seems to be to get everyone coming out with a degree via proliferation and lower standards but some of those degrees don’t really add to a person’s skills and capabilities and skills of use in life come in many differing forms. Coming originally from an area where a mere 1% of kids actually go on into proper higher and further education, I’m aware of the wasted pool but I’m also aware that the opportunity is there, many of them just don’t give a stuff.
What I personally prefer is that those kids who are clearly academically talented whether poor or rich are sent to the best schools for academic achievement, private, public or whatever. The state needs to support it.
193 - O Sage…you’ll need a few more onions if we are to take seriously one LibDem quoting from another LibDem’s mildly entertaining site (suitably brought to you from the Home of Lost Causes ;)) about the manifold problems faced by David Cameron
Still, you get a chicken nugget for effort.
195 - Grammer??????
Surely “GrammAr”!
Thanks for the Chicken Nugget. I just thought the original commments might prove interesting to you, since they sum up very well the whole Cameron problem. When are you Tories going to face up to it?
193″To the Tory base, he is striking the traditional right-wing notes: Europe, taxes and law and order”. Just wondering who Ming Campbell was appealing to with his speech on law and order on Friday?
Any political party who actually wants to achieve power with a working majority has to reach out and appeal to more than just their core vote.
198. Rik W, sorry, you’re right that was another error on my part…my dyslexia kicking in again…expect more in future posts (no matter how much I proof read).
I find this whole discussion on schools and universities very dispiriting. There is more inverted snobbery than actual snobbery about.
I was at a state grammar school and was “lucky” enough to go to Oxford. However, in retrospect, there were many brighter people than me there and I probably did not deserve to be there. I did not enjoy my time there that much, and would probably have preferred another, or perhaps no university at all, but I will defend the system.
Therefore, I was very angry when Gordon Brown raised the Laura Spence issue a few years ago, purely to appease old Labour.
Laura Spence, whose headmaster was a Labour aparatchik, gained top grades in her A levels, but failed to get into Magdalen Oxford to do medicine, and then won a scholarship to Harvard. Gordon stated that this was due to a bias against state schools in the system.
The facts showed this was cheap Socialist opportunism. Because:-
1. Her scholarship was not on academic merit but based on parental financial situation.
2. She shunned medicine and did something else at Harvard - therefore showing she was not that committed to the subject.
3. Most tellingly, of the seven getting into Magdalen for medicine, all had as good grades, most were state school, and over half were from ethnic minorities.
NB: Prescott, having failed his 11 plus, must have gone to a secondary modern, not a comprehensive.
Unusually for a LD, I support selective education. I also deplore the fact that far too many comprehensives, and secondary moderns, fail to even try to send their pupils to the best universities. Oxbridge and the like are crying out for decent state school applicants, but do not get enough. That is the problem.
192. Thanks.
202. yes, Prescott went to Grange Secondary Modern. Then he went to Ruskin College in Oxford and Hull University.
196 - Yokel
I think its fair to say that we agree pretty much, with the exception of our assessment of state education and how it serves, at the moment, the kids its responsible for… though I do not doubt some schools see gifted children’s aspirations hampered by politically correct, crackpot academic organisation… in the main I think there is better provision for gifted pupils as a whole than in some private schools, but, as I say, the system is crying out for reform that does this country’s children justice.
SBS Are you saying that Harvard admits based solely on the finances of a students parent?? Surely some display of academic acumen is needed.
The main problem with Oxbridge in my experience is the entry system - applying to an individual college and a single course and having to do at a far earlier date than every other university in the country naturally discriminates against those who don’t have the relevant knowledge or background. Whereas those from private schools get coached on what to say and expect, or get details of the types of examinations and questions asked at interview.
I think, SBS, that your testimony is bearing out what Ben said about the educational system,though on another level.
Some institutions - both universities and public schools - do pretty well by those who fit in: if you are bright, self-confident (even arrogant), conformist and hard-skinned you will do well out of them.
If you are in some way special, you need more help and support in certain ways, then a comprehensive school or a less highly powered (but perhaps more useful) university might indeed be the answer.
But water has long since passed under that particular bridge….
SDS @ 202
You are not alone. My son went to the same school as Adam R……….(oops, almost forgot), as Will Carling. He didn’t act, has dodgy knees so couldn’t play rugby, but they established his dyslexia and nurtured his talents. There were (always will be) some who will not be challengers on Mastermind, but all were encouraged to try and be the best in their field. The key is that everyone has a talent at something. Young people just need to be encouraged, and not continually knocked back. Yes, you can do……but these will be your hurdles.
If only all schools could nurture and encourage. There are good and bad in both sectors.
I simply do not understand this revulsion that many seem to have toward public schools. The experience they afford is the making of most of their pupils. I know that mine certainly was.
207. “If only all schools could nurture and encourage. There are good and bad in both sectors”, I whole hearted agree Ian.
201 - no worries and welcome!!
205 “SBS Are you saying that Harvard admits based solely on the finances of a students parent?? Surely some display of academic acumen is needed.”
No. Harvard award places on merit, but scholarships are means tested. However, when the Spence case came up, the implication of Gordon’s spin was that the *scholarship* was on merit.
211 - We have a lot to learn from the Americans regarding funding access for poorer students. Alas, nine years of Mr Blair has pushed us in the wrong direction.
197 - my site “mildly” entertaining…? How very dare you. I will accept no higher accolade than “sort of”.
200 - though I wrote the article from which Sage of Maidenhead quotes before Ming’s speech, it actually fits in quite well to my argument. My criticism of Cameron is that he’s not challenging his party on policy yet - merely on how it looks/feels, its ‘vibe’. That contrasts sharply with the way Blair took Old Labour by the scruff of its neck. And with the way Ming - with his eminently sensible law ‘n’ order speech - has worried some of my party on the, erm, more ideologically extreme wing (witness yesterday’s thread).
Cameron has a limited window of opportunity to take on his party, and really show to the public he’s fundamentally changing the Tories. Every day frittered away on ephemera like the A-list is a day lost to the real challenge he faces: showing people how life will be different under the Tories.
How come this site always ends up discussing Oxbridge applications?
213,”my site “mildly” entertaining…? ”
He can’t certainly appreciate your pictures gallery!
208 - “it never did me any harm”
215 - thank you for your support, Andrea. (I shall wear it always.)
208
‘I simply do not understand this revulsion that many seem to have toward public schools.’
Probably jealousy and envy would be better descriptions.
217 – John
“Probably jealousy and envy would be better descriptions.”
…it is really not so, a talented, intelligent kid going to a comprehensive is more likely to excel than a child going to a ‘public school’, a kid who comes out of a state sixth form with good A-levels is more likely to get to a good university and a state educated, university graduate is more likely to find a job… what’s there to be jealous about?
What I have said already applies particularly to ‘public schools’…
‘Public schools’ cater for a very specific sort of child, who is able to learn in a very specific way and/or reacts well to a very specific environment, culture and ethos, beyond that they are generally woeful in their job of teaching kids, something that is not helped by often amateurish teaching standards.
Furthermore, as with all private education, high expectations of privately educated kids combine with prejudices against those that have been privately educated (especially in regards to ‘public schools’) meaning that all but the brightest students are disadvantaged from the very start. Once vaunted “old boy networks” have less and less impact, and such system can simply not be reconciled with the competitive or commercial interests of companies and institutions and are, generally, only of use to a school’s brightest “old boys/girls” or otherwise in very specific spheres.
I’m not sure about streaming, Ben, but I definitely support setting, from personal experience. Being in the top set for English allowed me to go at my own pace, while being in the bottom set for Maths enabled me to get extra help (I felt, by contrast, far more ’stigmatised’ and ‘demoralised’ in the intermediate Maths group, where I could see how much better other people were at Maths, and where lack of extra help left me floundering).
I oppose streaming because it’s a blunt instrument - a friend of mine who went to Oxford from a state comprehensive disliked streaming because, while she was happy to be in the top stream for all other subjects, being in the top stream for Maths left her struggling and frustrated when she wasn’t all that good at Maths.
If, by contrast, there’d been setting at her school, she could have been in a lower set for Maths, where she’d have been much happier.
That’s the beauty of setting compared to streaming - it recognises that many pupils are good in some subjects, not so good at others.
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